DeathGrip
US Veteran
Tony Montana
Good one.
I will add that shot placement is difficult a best in a fire fight.It's not like they are gonna stand still when their being shot up.Also consider the leo's have to watch out for bystanders.
DG
Why has it not been mentioned
- Thread starter oldman45
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Good one.
I will add that shot placement is difficult a best in a fire fight.It's not like they are gonna stand still when their being shot up.Also consider the leo's have to watch out for bystanders.
DG
Ogandydancer
Member
Another good example of being hit multiple times before finally going down is the perps from the Miami shootout. That to me was amazing that one man could sustain that many hits prior to fnally being put down.
Again, examine the caliber weapons used. Since then, the FBI has went to a larger caliber sidearm.
truckemup97
Member
That's kind of what I was thinking. It's like the "powers that be" don't want to give the police a fighting chance, no pun intended.
LEO first went to the 9mm round from fear of being outgunned by the perps with high capacity firearms. These firearms were found lacking so they stepped up.
Now LEO are once again being outgunned but not by capacity but by the restrictions laws and courts have placed on them.
Many jurisdictions forbid returning fire at a moving auto. Some forbid firing at subjects that did not fire first. Some do not allow enough in the budget to pay for practice ammo. None pay what the job is worth. Officers no longer have a fighting chance but intelligence is on the side of the officer.
This thread will make me reconsider what's under my pillow. A 38 S&W Terrier may not be the way to go, of course my wife sleeps with a M1917 with two moon clips at fingertips.
truckemup97
Member
The pistol is just something to use while fighting your way to the rifle, or in my case, the shotgun.
ldausmc1369
US Veteran
Firepower
There at one time existed the optimum police sidearm, the model 58 S&W 41 magnum. If effort by S&W and Remington had been put into the marketing of the mod 58 and the loadings tamed/varied a little, then transition would have been simplified, as the mod 58 is a mod 10HB on steroids! I guarantee you a 41 mag loaded to medium velocity with a 210 JHP will get the job done. 'Nuff said. And I agree that a pistol is simply a short range, short term tool to get you to more potent fire power such as a 12 ga or .308. Notice I did not say .223, as our sage military leaders are finding out in the sandbox. What's the old saw, "what's old is new again?"
There at one time existed the optimum police sidearm, the model 58 S&W 41 magnum. If effort by S&W and Remington had been put into the marketing of the mod 58 and the loadings tamed/varied a little, then transition would have been simplified, as the mod 58 is a mod 10HB on steroids! I guarantee you a 41 mag loaded to medium velocity with a 210 JHP will get the job done. 'Nuff said. And I agree that a pistol is simply a short range, short term tool to get you to more potent fire power such as a 12 ga or .308. Notice I did not say .223, as our sage military leaders are finding out in the sandbox. What's the old saw, "what's old is new again?"
amd6547
Member
Honestly, I am reading a lot of preconcieved self justifying nonsense in this thread.
People have soaked numerous fighting cartridges, to include 308, 30.06,and yes, 5.56. Nothing can predict how the human organism will react to any wound that does not shut down the CNS or disrupt the spine, pelvis,etc.
One of the greatest soldiers in American history, Audie Murphy, preferred the m1 carbine, which e used with (of course) the 110gn FMJ. He had the ability to hit what he aimed at, and the courage to employ what many today consider to be a marginal weapon/cartridge to it's fullest extent. I have a feeling he would have done just as well with the 5.56mm and the M16.
People have soaked numerous fighting cartridges, to include 308, 30.06,and yes, 5.56. Nothing can predict how the human organism will react to any wound that does not shut down the CNS or disrupt the spine, pelvis,etc.
One of the greatest soldiers in American history, Audie Murphy, preferred the m1 carbine, which e used with (of course) the 110gn FMJ. He had the ability to hit what he aimed at, and the courage to employ what many today consider to be a marginal weapon/cartridge to it's fullest extent. I have a feeling he would have done just as well with the 5.56mm and the M16.
Audie Murphy had time to accurately aim before firing.
No doubt there is wisdom in what you say about hitting certain body parts but during stress, the time to aim is not there and the shock value of large calibers and a loud bang takes some of the fight out of an aggressor.
You may have seen the video made in Ohio where Troopers fired many shots at two perps during a traffic stops at close distances but none hit their target. Getting shots off is only part of winning a gun battle and under duress is something that gives the edge to those with larger calibers.
Until one has been there, they will never understand. After one has been there, they will always question the decisions made and re-hash what would have helped.
amd6547
Member
Yes, I'm sure Audie Murphy stood around shooting his carbine as if in a shooting gallery, with no pressure whatsoever.
7shooter
Member
Medal of Honor recipient Roy Benavidez received 37 hits from bullet, shrapnel,and bayonet wounds in a six hour battle in Viet Nam between 13 men and an enemy battalion. He survived. I first heard about this from a friend who served in Special Forces in Viet Nam. Here is a link to his story on Wikipedia :
Roy Benavidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roy Benavidez - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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venomballistics
Member
Ive read many CMOH reports ... and if you really read between the lines, many of the recipients of the CMOH quite probably went section eight just before becoming a hero.
no sane man would do most of the things they did.
the question is did they feel any of the pressure while they went to work? or did that part of them go on leave for the duration?
What I find interesting in the 9MM debates is the fact that many who denounce the 9 also tout the 38 special as a CCW.
While the 38 can operate with heavier bullets .. it is virtually identical to the 9 in terms of bore and energy. whats worse is the following the 380 seems to have. in any case I suppose the proponents of any of these calibers tout them on the assumption that they will be stone cold and level headed at the time they employ them.
Any one who has really swapped lead with a 9 wishes they had a 45 if they had to do it again.
those who had a 45 wish they had a 12 gauge.
those who had a 12 may have wanted to call in an airstrike.
People do strange things under stress. They do crazy things when trying to stay alive. Many have suffered injuries considered to be fatal but their will to live kept them alive.
When anger and emotions take over, we tend to do things that would not seem the best for us.
Anyone that has been in combat during military engagements will say they were in fear for their life so they kept fighting. Many were injured but did not know they were at the time. One marine goes around talking of his life and the war. He lost his arm and was still reaching for his rifle, not knowing his arm had been blown off.
My hat is off to anyone having been in that situation and at the same time fully understand that few of the current group of youngsters will ever have the experience since they are not serving in the military.
There are few vets in Congress now where as 30 yrs ago, most were vets. There are eight men in my office and only two of us served in the military.
I strongly feel military service would make men out of those young people walking the streets now searching for a direction in life.
GatorFarmer
Member
Shotgun wounds tend to be fatal in the majority of cases, as do rifle wounds. Something like 83 percent (the last number I recall reading in a gun magazine) of people wounded by a handgun survive.
Amusingly the 9mm, when loaded hot, is easily the equal of a .357 mag fired from a snubby. The .357 Sig exactly duplicates a fast .357 125gr from a 4" tube when loaded right. How many complaints would there have been about snubby Model 19s?
Jeff Cooper had only good things to say about the SW Model 39 and 59, both 9mms, during the Vietnam era Guns and Ammo columns that he penned. At the time, he also called the .41 Magnum the best option for those "wedded to the revolver concept". Some things change over 40 plus years. Including how we recall the body of work of some writers and how they later reinvented themselves.
Buying old copies of Guns and Ammo off Ebay can be quite the education.
Anyway, strange things happen when bullets impact flesh. Some people have a will to fight that keeps them in action longer.
Audie Murphy liked the M1 carbine because he was short and slight, and he already had enough other junk to carry. Mitchell Paige (the other MOH winning MG gunner on Guadalcanal) used a water cooled 1917 like a hip shooting sub gun to drop Japanese and was satisfied with it. Neither really proves that either was marginal or even better, sometimes things work, othertimes they don't.
The idea that a big hole will automatically drop someone isn't true either. People used to take multiple hits from Brown Bess Muskets and stay in the fight, and later guys would get hit by .58 Minie balls and keep on coming.
Head shots don't always work either. Bullets can glance off skulls, fail to penetrate, or even blow part of someone's brain out but not drop them right away. It can also take humans a while to run out of blood.
So what does it all mean? Pick a gun that you personally know how to use, works well, and that you have faith in. Practice. Use the best performing ammunition that you can afford that will penetrate deeply into a human and then worry about expansion.
I wouldn't mind having a .38 S&W terrier, they were handy little guns.
Amusingly the 9mm, when loaded hot, is easily the equal of a .357 mag fired from a snubby. The .357 Sig exactly duplicates a fast .357 125gr from a 4" tube when loaded right. How many complaints would there have been about snubby Model 19s?
Jeff Cooper had only good things to say about the SW Model 39 and 59, both 9mms, during the Vietnam era Guns and Ammo columns that he penned. At the time, he also called the .41 Magnum the best option for those "wedded to the revolver concept". Some things change over 40 plus years. Including how we recall the body of work of some writers and how they later reinvented themselves.
Buying old copies of Guns and Ammo off Ebay can be quite the education.
Anyway, strange things happen when bullets impact flesh. Some people have a will to fight that keeps them in action longer.
Audie Murphy liked the M1 carbine because he was short and slight, and he already had enough other junk to carry. Mitchell Paige (the other MOH winning MG gunner on Guadalcanal) used a water cooled 1917 like a hip shooting sub gun to drop Japanese and was satisfied with it. Neither really proves that either was marginal or even better, sometimes things work, othertimes they don't.
The idea that a big hole will automatically drop someone isn't true either. People used to take multiple hits from Brown Bess Muskets and stay in the fight, and later guys would get hit by .58 Minie balls and keep on coming.
Head shots don't always work either. Bullets can glance off skulls, fail to penetrate, or even blow part of someone's brain out but not drop them right away. It can also take humans a while to run out of blood.
So what does it all mean? Pick a gun that you personally know how to use, works well, and that you have faith in. Practice. Use the best performing ammunition that you can afford that will penetrate deeply into a human and then worry about expansion.
I wouldn't mind having a .38 S&W terrier, they were handy little guns.
venomballistics
Member
I have had a good number in my family who have served. so I grew up with a few war stories.
the thing that makes me read between the lines is a case where a fresh off the plane rookie replacement was on his second day in country and was posted as a guard where he earned his CMOH.
So there he was with his issued M16, a can of ammo, a spare 16 left at the post while accompanied by a coward pacifist.
was night time when the fun started. Sappers mounting an invasion.
Well the coward pacifist dropped his rifle and bailed, leaving the fresh meat to fend for himself.
The kid single handedly stopped that invasion.
he was not discovered until regular shift change the following morning where he was found cycling the bolt of an empty 16 over and over begging his replacements to bring more ammo.
Rice hats littered the ground and it was obvious what had happened.
My father helped the kid pack his gear for his plane trip home ... something went snap in the kid. and thats what got him through.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
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