Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500

John Ross

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Shown below is the THIRD ruined 500 I have personally handled. (I took these pictures).

In all three cases, the owner said it was a load of 17 grains of Titegroup (yes, seventeen in all three instances) and a cast bullet in the lower weight range for a .500 (370 grains or less).

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Relevant comment I posted before:

Detonation?

Detonation is what allegedly can happen when too little of certain powders is used. I say allegedly because the powder companies insist that detonation is a myth, they have never been able to make it happen in the lab, and all purported examples of detonation are actually double charges or other human errors such as mistakenly using the wrong powder.

The theory (espoused by those that believe detonation actually happens) is that with too little powder and too much air space in the case, the powder sometimes doesn’t burn progressively, but rather the primer ignites every grain in the entire charge at the same time and it goes boom all at once, like dynamite or some other high explosive.
I have seen one .500 with its cylinder deformed and flattened against the top strap. The shooter was a very experienced reloader with hundreds of thousands of rounds experience. He said his load was a charge of Titegroup that was a few grains below the starting recommendation with a lightweight cast bullet. He believes he got detonation. Hodgdon says that’s impossible, and that he loaded a double charge. Smith & Wesson understandably would not replace the gun under warranty. Which was it, detonation or double charge?

In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder. If the load still kicks too much, the .500 isn’t the gun for you.
 
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Loading a lot of a very fast burning powder doesn't make much sense to me either. That was a double or tripple load.
 
...Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder. If the load still kicks too much, the .500 isn’t the gun for you.

I don't claim to feel qualified to comment on issues .500-related since I don't own one, but the advice you give is great for ANY caliber and for handloaders of all levels of experience. It may cost a few cents more per box of shells to select a powder accordingly, but the worth of your eyes, fingers, etc., far outweigh the extra expense, IMHO.
 
If (and I do mean if) the problem was all of the powder igniting at once due to there being so much case space and not a double charge, would filling the case with filler have prevented this from happening? But I agree, if there is even a chance of this happening, go to a slower burning powder and eliminate any risk. Definitely a sight that makes me cringe every time I see this occur.
 
How many rounds of that load were shot before the detonation? Were there any signs of excessive pressure? Were the rounds loaded on a progressive or a single stage press?

This is scary as all get out!
 
Daaaaaaamn, that's scary. Having just purchased a 4" 500 and a Bone Collector on layaway along with purchasing everything I need to reload..... this does not make me feel very good abouit it. Gonna have to really pay attention to JR and whoever else will share their experience for us novice guys. I prefer learning from others mistakes vs my own
 
How many rounds of that load were shot before the detonation? Were there any signs of excessive pressure? Were the rounds loaded on a progressive or a single stage press?

I don't know. I was not present when this happened. I heard about it and contacted the man to examine the gun. After snapping a few pictures and asking the kind of questions you'd expect me to ask, he got very tight-lipped and packed up and left. I think he saw $$$ coming from somewhere and viewed me as an impediment to that goal.

Before that happened, he told me the left half of the cylinder struck his left cheek a glancing blow. If true, it had to be the smooth outside of the cylinder half, not the broken part. His cheek was unmarked and I took these photos the day after the incident.
 
Daaaaaaamn, that's scary. Having just purchased a 4" 500 and a Bone Collector on layaway along with purchasing everything I need to reload..... this does not make me feel very good abouit it. Gonna have to really pay attention to JR and whoever else will share their experience for us novice guys. I prefer learning from others mistakes vs my own

Avoid all powders faster than 296 in your 500, with the exception of TrailBoss. If you use TB, make sure you use a load that is NOT compressed.

Stick to those rules and you'll have no problems. At least not dangerous ones like this...
 
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YIKES!!

My favorite mild load is 15 gr. of TG behind a 350 gr. lead bullet. Very pleasant to shoot but also lethal to about anything that walks.
 
Avoid all powders slower than 296 in your 500, with the exception of TrailBoss. If you use TB, make sure you use a load that is NOT compressed.

Stick to those rules and you'll have no problems. At least not dangerous ones like this...

I think you mean faster.
 
I've seen two .500s (neither one mine) blow up with small-ish charges of Titegroup.

On the other hand, I've personally fired several 1000 rounds of .500 charged with 14-17.5 grains of Titegroup without a hiccup.

I don't doubt that there's something going on with this caliber/powder combination, but I do not believe that small-charge 'detonation' is the cause of the frequent kBs. Throw 17 grains of Titegroup in a .500 case and take a look at the powder level. Depending on the bullet, that much flake powder is going to fill about 50% of the available space. That's too much density for the classic 'flash-over' detonation to occur.

I have a theory as to why it happens - and keep in mind that this is only a theory - I have no hard experimental data to back up my hypothesis so take it for what it is: Some guy on the Internet spewing **** with nothing to back it up.

Titegroup is known as a non-position sensitive powder - good for small charges in big cases. It is widely known as a good powder to download, and lots of people use it that way. I use it for SpongeBob loads in .45 ACP all the time and it works beautifully in this application.

The kBs only seem to happen with the .500. I've never heard of a Titegroup-induced kB in an auto-loader.

I've fired 1000s of Titegroup .500 loads without incident using plated bullets that were taper crimped. Both times I've seen Titegroup-induced kBs, the offending rounds were roll-crimped. Since it is a .500, I think it's safe to assume that the roll crimps were probably on the strong side because that's the way that most people set their crimping dies when loading this beast.

My theory is this: When the powder ignites, the pressure builds to a slightly higher than normal level before the bullet even moves from the case (because of the roll crimp). The pressure then drops when the bullet starts to move, and then spikes again when the bullet encounters the rifling.

By the time the second spike hits, whatever additive the manufacturer had put in the powder to make it non-position sensitive has burned off, and the second spike causes much higher than normal pressure, which causes the revolver to come apart.

Both times I've seen it happen, the bullet never left the business end of the barrel. In one case it was lodged in the forcing cone, in the other we found it lying on the bench.

Did you find the bullet from the gun in the OP?
 
Interesting theory on pressure spikes.

Did you find the bullet from the gun in the OP?

No. He brought the gun to me in the condition shown in the photos. I don't know anything about where the bullet went. It didn't occur to me to ask if the bullet got out the muzzle or not.
 
All of the speculation about exotic and impossible to duplicate physics ignores the most likely cause of an event like this:

****A multiple charge of this fast powder****

The most experienced reloaders and scientists at the powder companies have been unable to reliably duplicate the "detonation" phenomena after thousands of tests! They wanted to understand how it happens in order to prevent these events and the potential lawsuits that follow.

Does it happen? Perhaps, although usually with SLOWER powders, not those like Titegroup.

What I am saying is that we should not jump to a rare, unverifiable phenomenon first as an explanation when a revolver fails with a handload, especially one loaded with a fast powder.

When somebody can VERIFY the load in a cartridge (multiple observers) and then that cartridge causes a sound revolver to explode then we can talk.

Right now, the gun owner/reloader has no incentive to admit a possible error...of course he will say "Its not my fault-it was a detonation, yeah, that's the ticket!"

Bob
 
All of the speculation about exotic and impossible to duplicate physics ignores the most likely cause of an event like this:

****A multiple charge of this fast powder****

What I am saying is that we should not jump to a rare, unverifiable phenomenon first as an explanation when a revolver fails with a handload, especially one loaded with a fast powder.

Well, yes, but thousands of tests by the powder companies pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of "tests" conducted by shooters. Hence my statement:

"In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder."

Although I didn't say it, loading this way also makes double charges impossible. And yes, I think a double charge is the LIKELIEST explanation for this event, but I am not willing to say it is the ONLY explanation.
 
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My theory is this: When the powder ignites, the pressure builds to a slightly higher than normal level before the bullet even moves from the case (because of the roll crimp). The pressure then drops when the bullet starts to move, and then spikes again when the bullet encounters the rifling.

By the time the second spike hits, whatever additive the manufacturer had put in the powder to make it non-position sensitive has burned off, and the second spike causes much higher than normal pressure, which causes the revolver to come apart.

Both times I've seen it happen, the bullet never left the business end of the barrel. In one case it was lodged in the forcing cone, in the other we found it lying on the bench.

A couple things here-

1ST- Welcome to the forum!

2ND- This is a very good hypothesis IMO, and one I was going to suggest, but now I see there's no need to.;)

John Ross said:
Although I didn't say it, loading this way also makes double charges impossible.

Exactly right John.

I think far too many guys are buying these guns hoping they can handle them, but once they find out that they really do kick, they want (read need) to download them. While mild loads are more enjoyable for most people, that's not what the gun or case was designed for. Using powders more appropriate for this size case will eliminate any potential double charges, and most likely all these KB's too.

JMO YMMV
 
I'm sure there all sorts of arm-chair munitions expert opinions on forums that delve into the mysterious "detonation", but the fact remains that reloading screwups are the only PROVEN way to blow-up a revolver.

And Titegroup is the absolutely worst powder imaginable for large, dark, cartridge casings. And it has a high nitro content which increases temp, which vaporizes more lead off the base of cast bullets and makes that lead available to you to breathe. Why guys think they're saving money by using Titegroup is beyond me.

Let me be clear: double-charges blow up revolvers and Titegroup is the easiest powder I've used to create a double charge. And the Dillon 550 is a proven double-maker.

Now you can go back to your detonation theories :)
 
Interesting discussion, and I never knew there was a problem with coboy action shooters either.

Anyway, if you're going to do research on the cause of the kabooms, you should collect data on what type of reloading techniques and equipment were used too. We might all benefit from this information.
 
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