I'm no expert either, but with smokeless powders you have to figure in the time factor too, sort of like "work". But Titegroup isn't a slow burning powder so I'm hesitant to even think detonation in this case. I've been turning away from Hodgdon powders more and more for various reasons and I'm not going to exclude them from any fault, but I too am leaning toward loader error for now. And it might even be loader equipment related, we need more facts.
Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500
- Thread starter John Ross
- Start date
OP
John Ross
Absent Comrade
I have personally seen three (after the fact--I wasn't there for the KBs) and have heard of two more. I have heard of NO .500 KBs with ANY OTHER powder.
I have had very good results with Titegroup in 38 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt. My experience is that this is a superior powder for these older low pressure cartridges. In the case of the 45 Colt, I get velocity spreads of less than 15 fps. This tells me that this powder is working very well in this large LOW PRESSURE case. I also use Titegroup for my 148gr. HBWC target loads for my model 14 bullseye gun. My bullets don't "melt" and the barrel doesn't get any hotter than usual. The only thing that happens is bullets landing VERY CLOSE to one another. For you reloaders that don't take the time to eyeball your cases to make sure that you haven't dropped a double charge of fast burning powder.........all I have to say to you, is that you have just failed reloading 101. Not to mention the fact that the bad result came from a reloader that admits to using a less than recommended starting load. Did it occur to anyone that those published starting loads ought to be followed just as closely as the maximum loads????........Sheeesh......apparently not.
I have tried Titegroup in other apps(357Mag and 10mm), and I got lackluster results. That tells me that this powder is better suited for lower pressure cartridges. While I have no experience reloading for the 500Mag, I do know that this is a 60,000 psi round. I'm thinking you 500Mag folks ought to stick to slower burning powders. You might want to observe published load data so nobody gets hurt!
I have tried Titegroup in other apps(357Mag and 10mm), and I got lackluster results. That tells me that this powder is better suited for lower pressure cartridges. While I have no experience reloading for the 500Mag, I do know that this is a 60,000 psi round. I'm thinking you 500Mag folks ought to stick to slower burning powders. You might want to observe published load data so nobody gets hurt!
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nofishbob
Member
tdan wrote:
I am not sure where the load data stated by the OP came from. For example, Hodgdon lists 16gr and 14gr of Titegroup as starting loads for 370gr CBP LGC and 375gr Barnes bullets respectively.
Its hard to make a definitive assessment without identifying the actual bullets that were used, but 17gr of Titegroup with a 370gr bullet does not seem to be an undercharge.
Bob
I am not sure where the load data stated by the OP came from. For example, Hodgdon lists 16gr and 14gr of Titegroup as starting loads for 370gr CBP LGC and 375gr Barnes bullets respectively.
Its hard to make a definitive assessment without identifying the actual bullets that were used, but 17gr of Titegroup with a 370gr bullet does not seem to be an undercharge.
Bob
bigshot500
Member
WOW this is an eye opener...What happend to the shooter? Does he have a hand left?
When I started to reload my 500, leadhead suggested to only use h110, he casts the bullets for corbon so at his advice that is what I stuck with. I have shot several thousand rounds of 500 grain hard cast and had zero issues.
Last year there was an article of how a light powder charge/ or a charge of powder that does not fill the case will cause a variance in accuracy depending on where the powder is in the case at the point of ignition. They didnt call it detination in the story..
When I started to reload my 500, leadhead suggested to only use h110, he casts the bullets for corbon so at his advice that is what I stuck with. I have shot several thousand rounds of 500 grain hard cast and had zero issues.
Last year there was an article of how a light powder charge/ or a charge of powder that does not fill the case will cause a variance in accuracy depending on where the powder is in the case at the point of ignition. They didnt call it detination in the story..
The reason why I posted that previous comparison that somebody did w/.45Colt was to show how small loads with even a slower powder like Unique had some pretty significant velocity spreads and velocity standard deviations when the powder was situated either right on top of the flash-hole or when it was situated at the back of the projectile/far away from the ignition source. If you look at what that guy discovered, he was able to show that based upon powder position in the case, he experienced @15% to almost 20% reduction in velocity in some cases (and higher extreme vel. spreads) with the same powder charge/primer combination.
For this particular .500 Kaboom, I have a feeling that the same issue that was shown with the Unique in the .45Colt cartridge could have resulted in a .500 projo getting stuck in the bore, the shooter was not aware of this dangerous situation, and the next round fired could have caused the actual Kaboom to happen.
BUT, on the detonation issue, I think Jellybean DOES make some very valid points when he talks about powder grain surface area variations due to individual propellant grain fracturing/crushing to significantly increase the surface area of a load and thus dramatically change burn characteristics. For small-grain ball or even flake type powders, one would think this would not be too much of an issue "normally". But with my own experience as a match .50BMG reloader/shooter, I can tell you that this is a HUGE issue for larger grain propellants.
Whether any of you know it or not, the faster burning smokeless powders (the tests I read about were done with Bullseye in particular) WILL detonate with surprising brisance in the right situations. The usual determinant factor in getting them to actually detonate is having enough propellant exposed to the initiator (tests were done with a #8 cap) so that the detonation wave will propogate completely throughout the propellant.
One would think that with some of the extremely small loads which have been reported to have "detonated" instead of "burned" that this "perfect detonation wave" could not be possible, but I have always wondered if a "perfect" situation could ever accidentally arise where an individual load was comprised of a large portion of "crushed" individual powder kernals (so individual broken-kernals have even less space between them than normal; which makes it easier for the det.-wave to transfer between them), and when this reduced-load gets sealed inside a relatively significantly sized and completely enclosed space like a reduced-load cartridge case is, it could allow for a perfect "harmonic" of sorts to be caused when the primer fires and thus create a more efficient "detonation wave" in the propellant rather than the slower/preferred "burn/ignition"...?
It's all theory when it comes to all of this coming together inside a cartridge case of course, but the faster smokeless propellants DO detonate quite nicely when the situation is right... The report I read said that Bullseye was just about equivalent to the detonation speed of TNT, which is "military grade" explosives!
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
First and foremost, PJ, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you!
As to one point in your post, Jellybean making good points, we have known he has that capability for a few years now!
(Sometimes I hate it when he does! (JK))
This is another reason I don't like Titegroup. Although, according to Hodgdon, 'cause I asked this question of their technical staff, it is supposed to be position insensitive. They compared it to Bullseye, another powder that would NEVER make it into the 500 from my reloading bench, and stated that it was exceptionally position sensitive.
The answer to this problem though is found in one of the cardinal rules of reloading, powder selection per ammunition type. Large volume cases REQUIRE a decent case fill to keep the "powder at the front of the case" from ever happening. Hence, slower powders, higher volume per load, more case fill.
The more we think we learn and experiment with new things the more we end up coming right back to what we have always known. If we are going to build a future in the hobby of reloading we must build on past knowledge. Throwing the "knowns" to the winds and having a case almost void of powder is silly.
Case in point: Elmer; building his bullets for the 44Spl. Did he make his bullets more front heavy so he could have empty space in the case? Um, no, he filled that extra void with powder. A slower burning powder that kept the case full.
FWIW
Again, PJ, welcome.
Littledragon777
Member
While I can't comment on the .500 problem with any authority I can tell you that I use Titegroup in my model 945. I have fired many thousands of shots with it without a problem. I find it a very accuraye loading using just 4.4 grains under a 230 grain FMJ round. I will continue to use it in this caliber without any worry whatsoever. I used it in .40 caliber but have gone to AA#5 as i seem to get better accuracy with it.
Gee thanks Skip, now I'm getting a little misty.
PJS50, can you give me a source or link to the reports you read about the fast powders detonating? You can never have too much information. Welcome to the forum, and please excuse my lack of manners.
Again, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I don't see it that way. If a bullet were stuck in the barrel there should be more damage to the barrel, either blown up or at least a bulge. Looking at the photos you can see a bulge in the chamber that blew and the corresponding bend in the stop strap. I would guess there was too much fast burning powder and the spike in the pressure curve was more than the gun could handle.
PJS50, can you give me a source or link to the reports you read about the fast powders detonating? You can never have too much information. Welcome to the forum, and please excuse my lack of manners.
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Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I actually did quite a bit of reading on the subject when I started loading because I wanted to put light .38 loads in .357 cases & was cautioned about it.
Detonation is supposedly a danger in bottleneck rifle cartridges when a light charge of slow powder was used and the flame spread over the top of the charge rather than burning back to front. As mentioned, it hasn't really been nailed down as a cause of KB in straight walled pistol cartridges.
I'm very comfortable light loading with fast powder like Bullseye.
The risk with faster powder is the double or triple charge, or loading those Big Dog magnums with a double digit dose of Bullseye instead of 2400.
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<Looking at the photos you can see a bulge in the chamber that blew and the corresponding bend in the stop strap. I would guess there was too much fast burning powder and the spike in the pressure curve was more than the gun could handle.>
Bingo!........The photos indicate the case blew before the bullet cleared the barrel. This looks like the classic Kaboom caused by an overcharge of a fast burning powder. This would cause a huge pressure spike resulting in the case blowing up in the chamber before the bullet had a chance to fully exit the case. You can't really fault S&W for refusing a warranty repair after you told them I was ONLY using a light charge of a fast burning powder like Titegroup for my 500Mag loads. If you can afford shooting those relatively pricey bullets in your 500, you need to pony up for the proper amounts of a slow burning powder to properly launch those projectiles. I would be especially careful when working up loads approaching 60K psi that are only contained in a revolver cylinder.
Bingo!........The photos indicate the case blew before the bullet cleared the barrel. This looks like the classic Kaboom caused by an overcharge of a fast burning powder. This would cause a huge pressure spike resulting in the case blowing up in the chamber before the bullet had a chance to fully exit the case. You can't really fault S&W for refusing a warranty repair after you told them I was ONLY using a light charge of a fast burning powder like Titegroup for my 500Mag loads. If you can afford shooting those relatively pricey bullets in your 500, you need to pony up for the proper amounts of a slow burning powder to properly launch those projectiles. I would be especially careful when working up loads approaching 60K psi that are only contained in a revolver cylinder.
grub348
Member
I personally don't know if it was an overcharge or undercharge of powder, but SOMEBODY has to say it, "Do you THINK you can fix her with a little J.B. Weld ?"
And that reaffirms my decision to not use TiteGroup in large cases - too darn easy to double. The stuff is only visible in new brass as it is the same color as soot. It is very dense which means that what sounds like a large weight doesn't take up much space.
Bullseye has scattered a lot of handguns over the years. Titegroup is worse than Bullseye.
Hello I am new to this forum. I would like to introduce myself. I have been shooting for over 20 years, and I own a S&W 640 revolver. I saw this discussion linked in another forum, and had to come, and join as this subject is of great interest to me as a shooter.
I have succesfully used Titegroup to load .44 mag, .38 Spl., .357 mag, and .45 ACP. I think there are better choices for these applications than Titegroup.
I found the above observation very interesting, and would like to offer my own theory. I think that the heavy crimp is the culprit in big revolvers KBing, but not for the reason above.
Heavy crimps can sometimes cut through the jacket enough to significantly weaken it. In plated bullets that have thin plated "jackets", and soft swaged cores they may cut through completely. Big revolver cartridges are often very heavily crimped.
As the gun is fired the core, and jacket head down the forcing cone, and separate as they hit the rifling. Shooter sees hole in target, and recoil seems normal. Part of the jacket is now a barrel obstruction. Gun is fired again, and KB. This is why the bullet never leaves the barrel, and why you have never seen it with taper crimps.
Hi bernieb90, welcome to the forum.
I've been comtemplating EddieCroyles theory too since he posted it. I only have one (that I know of) loading manual that discusses some of what he mentions and it is only specific about their products. The things he mentions does raise pressures and a lot of it would depend on the specific make-up and burning characteristics of Titegroup. But there is one thing that makes me hesitant to accept it and that is Titegroup is used in many calibers for the specific reason to give low velocities in large cases with very small charges of powder. I would think that the exact same problem would arise with the other cartridges also. Granted they are not as large as the .500 case and the charges used are appreciably larger, but we must also consider the pressure capabilities of the gun in question as compared to the others used. The .500 is rated to handle a cartridge rated to 60,000 psi, so just how high is a proof load for this gun? When handguns blow up, they aren't just a little over the pressure max. they are rated to handle. The other calibers would be pretty similar in scale not only in the excess space and powder charge but also how much pressure they can tolerate before they blow up. And even if they don't blow up there would still be enough of a pressure difference that the shooter would be aware of a problem when the bullet left the barrel.
I think there is more to it than just a heavy crimp and the spikes are taken into consideration when the load is devloped. No offense Eddie, and since my opinion is all supository it doesn't mean squat.
I've been comtemplating EddieCroyles theory too since he posted it. I only have one (that I know of) loading manual that discusses some of what he mentions and it is only specific about their products. The things he mentions does raise pressures and a lot of it would depend on the specific make-up and burning characteristics of Titegroup. But there is one thing that makes me hesitant to accept it and that is Titegroup is used in many calibers for the specific reason to give low velocities in large cases with very small charges of powder. I would think that the exact same problem would arise with the other cartridges also. Granted they are not as large as the .500 case and the charges used are appreciably larger, but we must also consider the pressure capabilities of the gun in question as compared to the others used. The .500 is rated to handle a cartridge rated to 60,000 psi, so just how high is a proof load for this gun? When handguns blow up, they aren't just a little over the pressure max. they are rated to handle. The other calibers would be pretty similar in scale not only in the excess space and powder charge but also how much pressure they can tolerate before they blow up. And even if they don't blow up there would still be enough of a pressure difference that the shooter would be aware of a problem when the bullet left the barrel.
I think there is more to it than just a heavy crimp and the spikes are taken into consideration when the load is devloped. No offense Eddie, and since my opinion is all supository it doesn't mean squat.
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Sure Jellybean... My buddy owns the little booklet that I read that in. I'll ask him the name of it and the author...
No lack of manners Jelly! Thanks for the welcomes to the forum by everyone...
Check this rifle Kaboom out:
rifle blow up - 300 Rem Ultra Mag - Topic Powered by Social Strata
The above event is pretty significant to me as I was sitting at the shooting bench right next to this .300RUM rifle when it went KABOOM (I am PJS50 on that site too)! I have the scars from the 5 staples in the head when scrapnel from the rifle hit me and permanent tinitus in my ears from the KABOOM's report, even though I was wearing ear protection... People tell me I'm lucky to be alive...
I wish people would be more carefull when they decide to take up the job of reloading ammunition, because even if they escape serious injury, like the shooter in my case did, the people surrounding them are usually not as lucky...
PJS50, interesting read! I realize the thread's a few years old, how is your hearing now? And have you suffered any other long term effects.
I don't have much experience with Savage rifles, but if they are like Remingtons I would have suspected the restocking of the rifle.
I don't have much experience with Savage rifles, but if they are like Remingtons I would have suspected the restocking of the rifle.
About the self indexing progressive loaders....... Where double charges can ocurr is either through powder bridging in the measure/load tube (when it finally drops, the charge weight is unknown) or, the more likely situation, where the machine baulks at some point. This generally results in some pumping of the operating lever and some wiggling of the feed mechanism/shell plate to free the malfuntion. This can result in multiple powder dumps into whatever case is in the powder feed position at the time.
The immediate action drill after getting the press running again is to pull the cases on the shell plate/in the loading process and dump any powder. You then have to start the loading cycle all over again. Depending upon how much manipulation of the machine was necessary, pulling the bullets from any loaded rounds on the machine is cheaper than a new weapon and the possible hospital bills.
Unfortunately, too many people take too many things for granted and refuse to admit they may have screwed up. I've seen a number of destroyed weapons and in every instance I can recall, the cause was a powder overload. In one case, by someone who bought the wrong powder and didn't think it made any difference.
The immediate action drill after getting the press running again is to pull the cases on the shell plate/in the loading process and dump any powder. You then have to start the loading cycle all over again. Depending upon how much manipulation of the machine was necessary, pulling the bullets from any loaded rounds on the machine is cheaper than a new weapon and the possible hospital bills.
Unfortunately, too many people take too many things for granted and refuse to admit they may have screwed up. I've seen a number of destroyed weapons and in every instance I can recall, the cause was a powder overload. In one case, by someone who bought the wrong powder and didn't think it made any difference.
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That's what I did a couple years back while loading .45acp for my Kimber. I was setup using TiteGroup and was having shell plate sticking issues. Looking back I can't say why I never bothered to check the cases in the queue - but i should have.
As a result - i did blow up my Kimber 1911 and was very lucky to only have rec'd a few tiny pieces of metal in my nose and face (small enough that most fell out on their own within a week - but one is still lodged in my nose - but it's the size of a period -> .
I've reloaded many rifle rounds since then using the turret press however I'm still leery about firing up the progressive press again. I know what changes I'll make next go around - but seeing the look on my (then) 8 month pregnant wife when i came home from the range with my pistol in a baggie, soot on my hands and face and a wee bit of blood on my nose was enough to give pause and evaluate my reloading process and think twice before i start it up again.
OP
John Ross
Absent Comrade
All .500 blowups I've seen were with cast bullets. And I don't think part of a jacket in the bore would more than double the pressure of the next round fired, and I think that is what it would take to blow the gun. Destruction testing of M29s years ago at the Super Vel lab revealed that M29s let go around 115,000 CUP. The X-frame is stronger than a 29.
To reiterate: This was almost certainly a double charge. I'd like to know the pressure of 34 grains of Titegroup with a 370 grain cast bullet. And a previous poster's comment about the sooty look of TG in a fired case being hard to see is a good point. That was news to me as I've never bought a pound of the stuff.
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