Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Total BS. This is why these old-wives tales keep circulating around and around on forums. Absolute total BS. I wish there was a BS icon.

Here ya go

 

[bernieb90]

All .500 blowups I've seen were with cast bullets. And I don't think part of a jacket in the bore would more than double the pressure of the next round fired, and I think that is what it would take to blow the gun. Destruction testing of M29s years ago at the Super Vel lab revealed that M29s let go around 115,000 CUP. The X-frame is stronger than a 29.

To reiterate: This was almost certainly a double charge. I'd like to know the pressure of 34 grains of Titegroup with a 370 grain cast bullet. And a previous poster's comment about the sooty look of TG in a fired case being hard to see is a good point. That was news to me as I've never bought a pound of the stuff.

Even minor barrel obstructions can significantly raise pressure. Lots of people have blown up guns due to dirt, snow, and even a crayon in the barrel.

If the KBs are happening with cast bullets then the only explaination is as you said a double charge.

I wonder is S&W would be willing sto sacrifice a couple guns to show what happens when you double charge a .500 with fast burning powder. If they can get the results to look like the OPs photo it would be a pretty definitive indication that that is what's going on in these cases.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I personally don't know if it was an overcharge or undercharge of powder, but SOMEBODY has to say it, "Do you THINK you can fix her with a little J.B. Weld ?"

Looks like a starter kit for a modern open top model. The modern remake of the Walker Colt... Smith and Wesson styled...

 

[S.B.]

Well, yes, but thousands of tests by the powder companies pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of "tests" conducted by shooters. Hence my statement:

"In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder."

Although I didn't say it, loading this way also makes double charges impossible. And yes, I think a double charge is the LIKELIEST explanation for this event, but I am not willing to say it is the ONLY explanation.

Hmmmmm definitely got me thinking about changing powders, now. Thanx for posting this.
Steve

 

[rwsmith]

Thanks for showing us....

Thank you for showing us the ugly truth.

 

[dla]

Thanks (sarcastically) for reviving a 2 year old thread where a bunch of old-fogers argue about space-aliens when the obvious is a double-charge. Classic double. Loading on a single-stage with a load block.

 

[Titegroups]

Detonation my ***. A simple double charge im sure. A reloader with maybe a little too much experience, getting up there in years and not willing to admit a bit less sharp than when they were when they were younger and making an error when charging a case. No need for long theories on a non existant phenomenon. Titegroup has a very high energy content per volume and therefore leaves little room error when loading. May I reccomend trail boss at the other end of the spectrum, about as foolproof as one gets and I bet nobody ever experiences a detonation with it.

 

[Titegroups]

Hate it when people revive dead threads. Awesome.

 

[jfp357]

WOW ! I will check my loads carefully..........AND listen and feel for click... pops.

 

[silentflyer]

Another reason I only load with powders that by volume, fill the case. No way can I get a double charge.

 

[scooter123]

Detonation my ***. A simple double charge im sure. A reloader with maybe a little too much experience, getting up there in years and not willing to admit a bit less sharp than when they were when they were younger and making an error when charging a case. No need for long theories on a non existant phenomenon. Titegroup has a very high energy content per volume and therefore leaves little room error when loading. May I reccomend trail boss at the other end of the spectrum, about as foolproof as one gets and I bet nobody ever experiences a detonation with it.

I have to agree with this conclusion. Everything I have read indicates that it's actually rather difficult to get Smokeless powders to actually Detonate. Basically, modern smokeless powders are sort of a High Octane propellant with a designed in resistance to Detonation (or "knocking). However looking at the case capacity of the 500 Magnum reveals that it's almost 3.4cc. According to my Lee Dipper chart 17 grains of Titegroup would use up just about 1.5cc of that 3.4cc volume. So, there is plenty of room in the case for a double charge of Titegroup. With a fast burning powder like Titegroup that can result in a rapid rise to pressure to levels that exceed the strength of the chamber containing the cartridge. Technically, this isn't a Detonation event because odds are that powder was actually burning properly, however it was an Over Pressure Event that did an impressive job of blowing up a rather expensive firearm.

This is one reason why I still like to use a single stage press. It allows me to satisfy my OCD tendencies and actually look into a tray of charged cases before setting the bullets in place.

 

[PJS50]

I have to agree with this conclusion. Everything I have read indicates that it's actually rather difficult to get Smokeless powders to actually Detonate. Basically, modern smokeless powders are sort of a High Octane propellant with a designed in resistance to Detonation (or "knocking). However looking at the case capacity of the 500 Magnum reveals that it's almost 3.4cc. According to my Lee Dipper chart 17 grains of Titegroup would use up just about 1.5cc of that 3.4cc volume. So, there is plenty of room in the case for a double charge of Titegroup. With a fast burning powder like Titegroup that can result in a rapid rise to pressure to levels that exceed the strength of the chamber containing the cartridge. Technically, this isn't a Detonation event because odds are that powder was actually burning properly, however it was an Over Pressure Event that did an impressive job of blowing up a rather expensive firearm.

This is one reason why I still like to use a single stage press. It allows me to satisfy my OCD tendencies and actually look into a tray of charged cases before setting the bullets in place.

I totally forgot about this thread until it was brought back from the dead...
YES, Scooter & Titegroup, smokeless powder (especially the faster ones or the single nitro-based slower ones; like the ones made for .50cal/20mm) ARE cap-sensitive (they will detonate with the right frequency "punch" to start the detonation wave). I'm not sure how easy it is to do, but it can happen.
I owe this info to Jellybean as well...

I called my friend where I first read about the above facts, the book you want to look up is called:

New & Improved C-4
Author: Ragnar Benson
Publisher: Paladin Press
ISBN#: 0-87364-839-0

In that book the author says that the powder itself (he specifically mentions Bullseye), with a cap to initiate it, makes an explosive equivalent in speed to military grade TNT.
After I heard about this, I often wondered if the guys who blew up smaller framed .357 revolvers with extremely light PPC loads of Bullseye, accidentally put together the "just right" set of circumstances to cause that powder to detonate???
It only makes sense that detonation actually occured in these cases because a couple of grains of Bullseye should never create enough pressure to explode a .357Mag. cylinder, should it?

 

[fredj338]

I wouldn't use TG for anything, certainly not a 500. That was not a detonation but a double charge. You would never see it inside the huge 500 case. TG, one of those ideas better left on the engineering table. IMO, using something like TG in a 500, totally inappropriate choice, is just a Darwin project.

 

[roundgunner]

So I guess I should not be using Mag primers for 6gr of Titegroup with a 250 Cast SWC in my 45 Colt.

If anybody proves BE or TG acts like TNT we will all be terrorist for talking about it.
Big brother NSA IS watching us you know.

 

[Nemo288]

A quick guestimate with QL shows 116Kpsi+ with 34 gr of TG under
a 350 cast. With room left over for more! (88%).
I use 7 gr of unique or universal in 44's all the time but they are never
as accurate as full house rounds of 2400 or 296. I am taking JR's advice
to heart and rethinking how I go about reducing loads in the 445 which is the 500's lil brother.
Too bad the Dan Wesson is not as strong as the X frame.
It develops endshake even with "normal" loads.
The way the crane is held in the frame is kind of odd and depends on a teensy lil piece of metal.
I would love for S&W to chamber the big X in 445.

---
Nemo

 

[fredj338]

So I guess I should not be using Mag primers for 6gr of Titegroup with a 250 Cast SWC in my 45 Colt.

If anybody proves BE or TG acts like TNT we will all be terrorist for talking about it.
Big brother NSA IS watching us you know.

No you can, there are just better choices.

 

[roundgunner]

That was kind of tongue in cheek. I don't think I will quit using Titegroup anytime soon. I have used pound after pound of it and buy more whenever I can find it. It really is my go to powder for standard loads.

The magnum primers was in jest...

 

[BLUEDOT37]

...I found this on the net and I think it is possibly useful for the analysis here:
Reloading Speeds vs. Powder Location in Case Page

Granted, the above comparisons were done with much slower powder in .45 Colt caliber, but I think this guy is on to something...

This test used 10.0gr/Unique with 250 & 255gr cast bullets. (Not knowing his exact bullet dimensions I used some I have for these weight bullets.) A 250gr bullet that has .346" seating depth would be 73% full. A 255gr bullet that has .366" seating depth would be 75% full, both with 10grs/Unique. It's surprising that even at these volumes you could still get that much variation.

 

[Nemo288]

Not sure if I have mentioned this in this thread but ML "Mic" McPherson
suggests seating bullets deeper than normal in loads like those to increase
accuracy and reliability.

Thoughts On Improving Revolver Loads

This is almost opposite to what Veral Smith opines in his little book.

Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets

I have not tried this yet but it sounds logical and will be my next experiment.
I just got Mic's new reloading tome from Safari Books and it is quite
entertaining and completely different from any other such book I have read.

---
Nemo

 

[manyguns]

Gee I must have a death wish. I am just starting my second 35lb. keg of Titegroup. I have used it in .32 H&R, 9mm. .38 Special, 44 Special, .45 ACP & .45 Colt with excellent results. And I use a Dillon 550 too! Just pay attention when you reload.