Why my Model 64 won't work with .357?
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357 will not seat completely in the Model 64 (38 special) cylinder. Wouldn't be able to close cylinder.
john traveler
Member
No. The M64 has a longer barrel shank ("forcing cone") than the M65.
The M65 cylinder is longer than the M64 cylinder.
These two visible differences prevent swapping out the two cylinders.
There may or may not be differences in materials and metallurgy between the M64 and M65 frames if you are thinking about a conversion to .357 Magnum.
The M65 cylinder is longer than the M64 cylinder.
These two visible differences prevent swapping out the two cylinders.
There may or may not be differences in materials and metallurgy between the M64 and M65 frames if you are thinking about a conversion to .357 Magnum.
Reminds me of a fellow who asked if I "could find out the secret powder used in .357 magnum."
"No secret. I already know."
"Great! How much would you charge to load me a box of .357 powder in my .38 shells?"
"$1,000,000 per cartridge."
Nobody in ther right mind would accept the liability risk for putting any form of a .357 into a .38 gun for another person.
"No secret. I already know."
"Great! How much would you charge to load me a box of .357 powder in my .38 shells?"
"$1,000,000 per cartridge."
Nobody in ther right mind would accept the liability risk for putting any form of a .357 into a .38 gun for another person.
64s have hung around because of PDs and security companys dictating that they wanted their employees to carry 38 special. If you want a 357 sell your 64 and buy a 65. The difference should be little if any.
I do not wish to convert my gun (that would not be wise), I am just curious if the .357 models are in fact built better in any way. The 64 looks very sturdy, and I just could not see how the 65 would be sturdier.
I think S&W built it as a .38 revolver, just because there was need for a .38 revolver in their K frame line, I truly don't think the 65 is built any better than the 64.
Most likely, if the cylinder is modified to accept .357, the model 64 revolver would have the same service life as the 65.
Why are .357 revolvers so much more expensive, if they are basically a .38 revolver with a slightly different cylinder (as in the case of the 64 and 65)?
I think S&W built it as a .38 revolver, just because there was need for a .38 revolver in their K frame line, I truly don't think the 65 is built any better than the 64.
Most likely, if the cylinder is modified to accept .357, the model 64 revolver would have the same service life as the 65.
Why are .357 revolvers so much more expensive, if they are basically a .38 revolver with a slightly different cylinder (as in the case of the 64 and 65)?
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john traveler
Member
Heat treating services are surprisingly expensive.
I once talked with a machine tool supplier (reamers) and he described the cost of sending out machined reamers for heatreating before grinding to finished dimensions was something like 10-15% of the final sale price.
Even if S&W does it's heat treating in-house, the cost of capital equipment, instrumentation and controls, metallurgy laboratory, and qualified personnel to operate these facilities is great.
That may partially explain why the magnum model of an otherwise ordinary .38 Special model brings a premium. The final factor that dictates price is customer demand and a limited supply.
I once talked with a machine tool supplier (reamers) and he described the cost of sending out machined reamers for heatreating before grinding to finished dimensions was something like 10-15% of the final sale price.
Even if S&W does it's heat treating in-house, the cost of capital equipment, instrumentation and controls, metallurgy laboratory, and qualified personnel to operate these facilities is great.
That may partially explain why the magnum model of an otherwise ordinary .38 Special model brings a premium. The final factor that dictates price is customer demand and a limited supply.
dwhite53
Member
You could even build the two pistols out of different grades of steel lending different strength characteristics to each gun. They could have the same cross sectional size but very different tensile strength and hardness.
I keep seeing posts on various boards about:
using +p ammo
Can I load 357 powder charges in 38 special cases?
Can I shoot 357's in my 38?
I saw someone the other day asking about running 9mm luger through their 9x18 makarov.
Why don't people just buy a gun for the power level they want?
All the Best,
D. White
I keep seeing posts on various boards about:
using +p ammo
Can I load 357 powder charges in 38 special cases?
Can I shoot 357's in my 38?
I saw someone the other day asking about running 9mm luger through their 9x18 makarov.
Why don't people just buy a gun for the power level they want?
All the Best,
D. White
1. Yes .357 magunm guns use different heat treatment and, in some cases, more expensive materials.
2. You cannot tell the strenth or hardness of any alloy by looking at it. This assertion of "how it looks means it's strong" is patently absurd to a materials engineer.
3. The advances in metallurgy in the last two decades is astounding both in sophistication and availabillity. Even in vehicles, most of the steel is a different alloy than was commonly used in your dad's Buick.
It is possible to build a 6-oz compact .357 pistol that would be adequately strong if you want to spend enough money (I wouldn't want to shoot it because of recoil).
Added: One of the things that makes cheap guns cost less is that they use softer alloys. Not only is the material cheaper, it costs less to machine and finish. You want to see good blue job in a hurry, try it on mild steel.
So the gun wears out quicker, so what? Most people don't shoot their guns all that much anyway. (Gun enthusiasts on this board are not most people)
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The Rim isn't bigger, the rim is the same size. The case of the .357 Mag. is .125 longer than the .38 Spec. so that .357 cannot be chambered in a .38 Spec. gun.
You asked latter why .357's are more expensive, my own guess is that they are more desirable (to some) because they have the ability to shoot all the above. You can shoot .38 Spec. in a .357 which adds to a .357's flexability. For what it's worth...
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There is so much you do not know. And I also. It takes experts in many fields to figure the strength required to handle the forces of a .357 magnum round compared to a .38 special round.
It really is a science and an art.
You cannot tell by looking at a piece of metal just how strong it is!!
Now Y'all have got me wondering about the heat treatment of stainless steel.
I've taken a few metallurgy classes (back when Jesus wore short pants), and learned a considerable amount about heat treatment of carbon steel, and have done quite a bit of it. Back then, they didn't teach us anything about heat treatment of stainless steel.
Anybody know anything about it? Does it react similarly to non-stainless carbon steel? Is the process the same, or even similar at all?
I guess I always thought that the hardness and toughness properties of stainless were due to the various metals that are present in the alloy, not the result of any heat treatment.
Now I'm wanting to do a Brownells hardness test on the cylinders of my 686 and my 64 and see wazzup.
Jim
I've taken a few metallurgy classes (back when Jesus wore short pants), and learned a considerable amount about heat treatment of carbon steel, and have done quite a bit of it. Back then, they didn't teach us anything about heat treatment of stainless steel.
Anybody know anything about it? Does it react similarly to non-stainless carbon steel? Is the process the same, or even similar at all?
I guess I always thought that the hardness and toughness properties of stainless were due to the various metals that are present in the alloy, not the result of any heat treatment.
Now I'm wanting to do a Brownells hardness test on the cylinders of my 686 and my 64 and see wazzup.
Jim
Spotteddog
Member
I'd suggest an in depth study of Warner Brothers stuff.
Mainly Wiley Coyote vs. The Roadrunner before I'd sally forth?
Mainly Wiley Coyote vs. The Roadrunner before I'd sally forth?
Wee Hooker
Member
Odly enough, I have a customized mod 64 that was rebored to 357 by the previous owner. He reportedly shot 357 out of it for practice but I never have. Not sure if he did anything to the cyl for heat treating either. I'll only shoot 38's out of it myself.
nicky4968
Member
Long story short, don't try to make your firearm something it's not.
Despite it's "bad reputation" IMHO, the .38 Special 158 rnl should settle anybody's hash, if you put it in the right place. (Big word, that "if".)
If you want more power, pay the money to get it. Heck, if you've got so much money you can't get the garage door closed because of all the bales of 100s and 1000s, buy a Korth.
I am one of those unknowledgeable ones who bets his life on the 158 rnl every day. But what the heck do I know.
PS: 4.3 grains of Unique. #2 Alloy. LFCD. One-half way turn of the die (if you read the instructions, you'll know what I mean).
Despite it's "bad reputation" IMHO, the .38 Special 158 rnl should settle anybody's hash, if you put it in the right place. (Big word, that "if".)
If you want more power, pay the money to get it. Heck, if you've got so much money you can't get the garage door closed because of all the bales of 100s and 1000s, buy a Korth.
I am one of those unknowledgeable ones who bets his life on the 158 rnl every day. But what the heck do I know.
PS: 4.3 grains of Unique. #2 Alloy. LFCD. One-half way turn of the die (if you read the instructions, you'll know what I mean).
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