Why not a .45 for LEOs

[Springfeildkid585]

Never say never.

Now where are you talking about as standard issue?

Are you aware the 1911 is gaining in popularity, the .45acp is gaining in acceptance not only in the civilian market but also the LE market.

The oldest military item still in use today is the 1911 with several units using the 1911.

Name me one gun that is as popular as a 1911. I think the .45acp round is the cause of that popularity. It will take some checking but I think there are four agencies in the area using the .45acp but not in 1911. I will find out for sure today.

Actually I believe the Browning M2 has been in service longer

 

[ASA335]

Actually I believe the Browning M2 has been in service longer

According to my research, the M1911 was adopted by the US in 1911. The M2 (as the M1921) was originally adopted by the US in 1923.

Thus, the M1911 beats the M2 as the oldest US Military firearm still in service (although limited service) by about twelve years.

 

[armsmaster270]

Originally Posted by johnsonl
I carried a Glock 17 on duty for 12 years. I have not considered myself to be as well armed since my 3' Model 65, back in the 80's.
The accepted "one shot stop" round is the .357 Magnum 125 JHP. The .357 SIG was developed to mirror it and offer a high cap carry option. It never really caught on.

Here is part of the report the FBI did for the Secret Service on the 357Sig

 

[myanof]

I worked in Dallas in the 1970s and 80s...they had a very simple policy...

They handed you a Model 15 or 64 with leather....you could then go out and buy any S&W, Colt or Browning revolver or semi in:

.380 (investigators only)
9mm
.38 Super
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.45 ACP
.45 Auto Rim

Ammo:
Issue was .38 Special +P 158 LSWC-HP. If you carried a .38 Special or .357 Magnum you could use departmental loaded ammo free to qualify. Any other caliber you bought your own for duty or qualification.

As to your own ammo...it was written right into the directives that anything that didn't explode or was incendiary was ok to carry...that includes handloaded ammo.

We had the best range staff anywhere...a sergeant and four full time ROs...
Every one had 10+ years on
Every one had killed someone in the line of duty
Every one but one was a hunter
Every one was a PPC competitor
They all knew how to train officers to shoot to live...not just qualify.

DPD officers were involved in 80+- on-duty shooting a year...with a 65% hit rate...when the rest of the country averaged 19%. With rare exceptions gunfights ended in under three rounds....that includes the semis...

I knew lots of the shooters. The only people I knew who often changed caliber after their first gunfight were those shooting .38 Specials. No one else. For every other caliber just put a decently constructed bullet where it is supposed to be and the fight usually ends quickly...

I've carried .38 Special (mandated), 9mm, .38 Super, .41 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum on duty and the only time I had little confidence in what I was carrying was .38 Special with 158 +P HPs and 9mm 147 subsonics...

If I was still a LEO I would want something chambered in .357 SIG. Modest recoil, lots of tactical penetration and excellent bullet expansion...

Bottom line is that it is much more important that the gun fits the individual officer and that they have confidence in their ability with it and the ammo being used. I took the SIG Tactical Pistol Instructors Course and one thing that stood out in their manual was that one gun should not be chosen for an entire department because one gun will not fit everyones hands. It's like ordering one size bullet proof vest for everyone....

Bob

I remember growing up in Dallas in that time period. I always admired the DPD motorcycle force that rode those beautiful Harleys and carried those beautiful nickle plated 1911s. Those were the days when you took your driving license test at Fair Park. That gives you an indication of my age.

 

[m19862]

This is only my opinion, after 23 years of LE service, and 15 of them as the senior range officer:

1-When it comes to a firefight it is the shooter, not the weapon.
2-Larger calibers are preferred, when possible.
3-The 40 S&W is a unique round that is cost effective for many agencies.
4-Teaching anyone to shoot, whether my children, or 100's of officers, is all about confidence in instruction, confidence in weapon choice, and confidence in skill. The goal is to 'make them believe in themselves'

For example- I once had an officer who could not qualify for anything. There was nothing wrong with the weapon (SIG P226- 40S&W), he just could not do it. I finally realized that his problem was mental. To correct this, I made a big deal about all the problems with his issued firearm. Then issued a brand new one, that had "no problems." He qualified, and continues to do so. In fact, he still comments about how 'bad' that other weapon was.

That said, my preferred weapon is a 1911 45 acp.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

This is only my opinion, after 23 years of LE service, and 15 of them as the senior range officer:

1-When it comes to a firefight it is the shooter, not the weapon.
2-Larger calibers are preferred, when possible.
3-The 40 S&W is a unique round that is cost effective for many agencies.
4-Teaching anyone to shoot, whether my children, or 100's of officers, is all about confidence in instruction, confidence in weapon choice, and confidence in skill. The goal is to 'make them believe in themselves'

For example- I once had an officer who could not qualify for anything. There was nothing wrong with the weapon (SIG P226- 40S&W), he just could not do it. I finally realized that his problem was mental. To correct this, I made a big deal about all the problems with his issued firearm. Then issued a brand new one, that had "no problems." He qualified, and continues to do so. In fact, he still comments about how 'bad' that other weapon was.

That said, my preferred weapon is a 1911 45 acp.

I had an instructor like you back in the 60's. Not only could he teach the fundamentals (which any good instructor should) but he stuck with students no matter how long it took to qualify and inspired everyone to improve. You, and instructors like you, are a credit to the profession and don't hear this often enough.

 

[m19862]

Thank you, sir.

 

[617X10]

OK, a wee bit of background here. I carried a 1911 by choice for 19 years and have toted a gun for a paycheck for nigh onto 30 years. I've also used or been issued .38 Spl, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 9mm and 10 mm (full power). On my own time, I carry a 9.

Why didn't the .45 replace the .38? Very briefly:

1. To remove the 1911 platform from the picture I will note Mas Ayoobs comment that while it may be a superb combat weapon, it isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device for a variety of reasons.

I will also add that the platform was designed 100 years ago and while it's a marvelous device, we've learned a lot since then and there are better tools available for the purpose today. Get over it.

2. Ammunition cost-this is not a paltry consideration when you let ammo contracts in 100,000 round-or more- lots. NYPDs ammo budget was in the millions of rounds some years back.

3. Frankly, the recoil of the .38/9mm is about what the vast majority of folks can handle well given the training and practice of the average police officer. Or civilian for that matter. Since shot placement is far more important than the diameter, velocity or construction of the bullet, skill is more important than those factors and is more readily achieved with a caliber with less recoil.

If you have the money and dedication to achieve and maintain a high level of proficiency with something else, by all means use it. So long as that proficiency isn't a product of either imagination or a lack of understanding of the real world.

4. Ammunition today isn't what it was lo many years ago or even a few years ago. There is little practical difference between the various calibers today.

"Isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device"---Does he say this about the 1911 specifically or all pistols in general? Mas Ayoob has a 1911 signature model, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that those were his exact words without elaborating. This is also a pretty pointless statement considering that the police have carried riot guns and AR-15s for years now.

"The platform was designed 100 years ago and there are better tools available today"---Which pistol has a better trigger out of the box and points more naturally than a 1911 for the vast majority of people who want to put bullets onto targets accurately, and in a hurry? These are the same people who buy a gun which gets them the results desired, which is very different from those who just got out of the police academy and were issued whatever high-cap semiauto pistol the department bought under contract. Again, if you are going to debate back up your statement with fact and not hearsay.

 

[Silversmok3]

"Isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device"---Does he say this about the 1911 specifically or all pistols in general? Mas Ayoob has a 1911 signature model, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that those were his exact words without elaborating. This is also a pretty pointless statement considering that the police have carried riot guns and AR-15s for years now.

"The platform was designed 100 years ago and there are better tools available today"---Which pistol has a better trigger out of the box and points more naturally than a 1911 for the vast majority of people who shoot for the sheer fun of it? These are the same people who buy what they want, which is very different from those who can't wait to get out of police academy so they can have a badge and a Glock. Again, if you are going to debate back up your statement with fact and not hearsay.

I feel this must be said, and said because its a fact we 'gun people' tend to forget-the average Joe and Jane Lawman is not on our level of gun knowledge. Furthermore one size gun and bullet does NOT fit all.

Oh sure, there are many LEOs who can debate this topic until Judgement Day, but many police and military stick their M9s and G22's in their holsters at start of shift, and put them up at the end of shift.That's it. Jeff Cooper once said a marksman has to choose to pursue firearms knowledge-no organization can 'force' someone to be a great shooter.

Its easy to say 'everyone gets a .45 1911'. Its a lot harder to get a team of people who aren't interested very much in target shooting to take time to master a platform like that. A LEO with only a casual interest in gun handling can pick up a Glock 22 .40 S&W and be trained shoot it reasonably well,as there isn't much in the owners manual beyond point and shooting it. Ditto for a policeman with a S&W 5906 or Beretta 92.

However...an LEO with a casual attitude towards their duty 1911 is a disaster waiting to happen for all parties.Good luck drawing and accurately firing a .45 ACP 1911 under life or death stress when the last time you handled it was 6 months ago.

"but Silversmok3, the 1911 was the premier pistol of the Armed Forces and police for decades in the past?"

I would submit that this was a different country back then.Not only were citizens not afraid of firearms, even casual laypeople knew the four rules and had basic exposure to firearms.Training someone to handle a 1911 back then took less work ,less money,and much less risk from PR kool-aid drinking spineless toads above the troops using them.

Today being the 'gun guy' in the military gets you strange looks from your squadron mates,the four rules are relegated to Facebook posting etiquette,and a majority of recruits from urban America into the military have never touched an actual firearm prior to basic , much less fired one.I cannot see police recruiters doing much better.

In the so called modern age of still needing to get the job done with smaller training budgets, larger legal budgets,and a recruitment base ignorant of basic gun handling experience the use of 9mm Glocks and DA/SA firearms makes sense.

As for Myself?A Cocked and locked Taurus until I get the scratch for a quality USA made 1911.

 

[David LaPell]

One thing I can say after being on the job for more than seven years is that while a .45 is a great gun, it is not a great gun for someone who has never fired a handgun before. Our duty gun is a Glock 21 and I can tell you that a large percentage of shooters in our department (as in alot of departments) the safest place might just be in front of them. Here the academy teaches the fundamentals, but every year when they requalify, its just a quick brush up and you go out and shoot your two scores and that's it. Half the people I work with don't own or shoot a handgun other than their yearly qualification. Another mistake I see is the ones who do, go out and buy Glock 21's but don't realize their factory trigger is much lighter than our issue guns, and wonder why they can't get decent scores. As for me, if I had a choice, I would either carry my Model 27 or go out and buy a 4-inch Model 28 and be done with it.

 

[27145]

Actually I believe the Browning M2 has been in service longer

Why not correct the spelling of your forum user name, then come back and talk to us.

 

[617X10]

I feel this must be said, and said because its a fact we 'gun people' tend to forget-the average Joe and Jane Lawman is not on our level of gun knowledge. Furthermore one size gun and bullet does NOT fit all.

Oh sure, there are many LEOs who can debate this topic until Judgement Day, but many police and military stick their M9s and G22's in their holsters at start of shift, and put them up at the end of shift.That's it. Jeff Cooper once said a marksman has to choose to pursue firearms knowledge-no organization can 'force' someone to be a great shooter.

Its easy to say 'everyone gets a .45 1911'. Its a lot harder to get a team of people who aren't interested very much in target shooting to take time to master a platform like that. A LEO with only a casual interest in gun handling can pick up a Glock 22 .40 S&W and be trained shoot it reasonably well,as there isn't much in the owners manual beyond point and shooting it. Ditto for a policeman with a S&W 5906 or Beretta 92.

However...an LEO with a casual attitude towards their duty 1911 is a disaster waiting to happen for all parties.Good luck drawing and accurately firing a .45 ACP 1911 under life or death stress when the last time you handled it was 6 months ago.

"but Silversmok3, the 1911 was the premier pistol of the Armed Forces and police for decades in the past?"

I would submit that this was a different country back then.Not only were citizens not afraid of firearms, even casual laypeople knew the four rules and had basic exposure to firearms.Training someone to handle a 1911 back then took less work ,less money,and much less risk from PR kool-aid drinking spineless toads above the troops using them.

Today being the 'gun guy' in the military gets you strange looks from your squadron mates,the four rules are relegated to Facebook posting etiquette,and a majority of recruits from urban America into the military have never touched an actual firearm prior to basic , much less fired one.I cannot see police recruiters doing much better.

In the so called modern age of still needing to get the job done with smaller training budgets, larger legal budgets,and a recruitment base ignorant of basic gun handling experience the use of 9mm Glocks and DA/SA firearms makes sense.

As for Myself?A Cocked and locked Taurus until I get the scratch for a quality USA made 1911.

I was in the same boat as those who never touched a firearm until basic training. I wanted to get a good handgun and learn to shoot it well, and I chose a Kimber Custom II .45 Auto. I had a few friends that also wanted to learn how to shoot a handgun, and they either bought one for themselves and rented one on our weekly range trips. Most weren't willing to shell out the money for a 1911, and I believe the first gun bought by a friend was a Baby Eagle, which turned out to be a pretty good gun itself. The great thing about our weekend range trips was the amount of different handguns we were exposed to by swapping our own for a little time with the rentals or "new toys." You look back on how green behind the gills everyone was and think it's amazing that no one got hurt without the proper instruction, but now I realize that we all had a pretty big motivational factor keeping us in line. For us, it was all about peer pressure. We were all a bunch of guys who worked in the same building. I knew that if I screwed up, I would never hear the end of it. Since I REALLY didn't want that to happen, I always took the extra precautions I thought necessary to make sure I wouldn't put a hole in me or the ceiling. Kind of like loading 1, skipping 1, and loading 4 in a single action revolver. I'm sure the other fellas felt the same way, and took whatever precautionary measures they deemed necessary as well. And being AFRAID of the gun? Well, if any of us had let that be known it would have been even worse than shooting yourself in the foot. Call me crazy, but we shot 10s of thousands of rounds and the worst thing I ever saw happen was the wire that runs the target back and forth get taken out by an errant shot. And yes, we did give that guy heck. Hey, we had to get another lane, so he deserved it.

 

[FUBAR-M1A]

We are issued the Glock 22 but can carry a personally owned Glock 21 or G30. Out of 1,600 officers I think there are 6 of us who carry a G21/30.

 

[WR Moore]

"Isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device"---Does he say this about the 1911 specifically or all pistols in general? Mas Ayoob has a 1911 signature model, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that those were his exact words without elaborating.

Again, if you are going to debate back up your statement with fact and not hearsay.

I'm quoting published opinion by the man on the use of the 1911 pattern as a law enforcement sidearm. I'm neither debating nor serving as your research department. You find it unlikely, read the man's collected works (I think it may have been in an American Handgunner column) or pony up and take his classes.

To put it into perspective, LEOs justifiably hold people at gunpoint about 33 times for every one shooting based on stats. Then, there's the stress involved, hormone laced blood, widely differing competence etc. So the wonderous trigger you may so love on the square range isn't a real good choice for those without considerable training (and where's the budget for that training?). BTW, the triggers on 870's & ARs have no relation in terms of either weight or length of pull to those well tuned 1911s you seem so fond of. Neither did the issue triggers on GI 1911s.

There's a whole lot more to consider when choosing a service pistol-or one to bet your life on-than the weight of the trigger. Or the mythical magic of the .45 ACP. I will note that I carried a 1911 for 19 years by choice. It won me trophies and kept me on the upper side of the grass, but there are better tools available now, all things considered. Advanced research with sensor equipped pistols has shown that even well trained individuals can unconciously get their fingers on the trigger when under high stress. A trigger action with greater length of activation and heavier weight is a wee bit of cushion against an unitentional discharge of the weapon without unduly handicapping the person toting it.

 

[jimmyj]

I have to disagree with many of these comments. Until the introduction of the "maintenance free" wonder nine in the 1980s the Colt 1911A1 was still very popular with police departments. The popularity was so high that An Introduction to Modern Police Firearms by Roberts & Bristow printed in 1969 included firearms training for the 1911 along with revolvers.

The 1911A1 has been carried by many police officers since 1920. Many of the first officers to carry the 1911 brought them back from WWI. I remember reading an NRA article years ago that more than half of the 1911s produced for WWI were "lost" out of military inventories.

You must remember that most officers did not make a lot of money on the job. The M10 was anywhere from $20.00 to $40.00 cheaper than a Colt 1911.

Leather was another problem. If you were lucky you knew someone that was retiring and could give you some leather or a buddy gained weight and sold you his old one cheap. With a revolver all you needed was a holster and belt. Ammo was carried in a pocket until the advent of dump pouches. Remember that most departments did not issue hand radios until the 1970s. If you purchased a Colt you might have to special order the holster, belt and magazine pouch from a big city. Until the late 1960s most Colt holsters were designed to work with military belts not police belts.

Ammo was another issue. Many departments might have been very liberal with the approved list of guns but any ammo other than 38 special was up to the officer to purchase for duty and range. Maintenance and repair was also up to the individual officer.

All this said Colts were very common. Most people did not notice the gun because they were so common and nothing special. Today we notice a revolver because it is something rare and out of place. I also want to say that departments are now going away from 9mm and even 40S&W back to 45ACP. Illinois has had a great increase on department authorizing the Colt 1911. The main requirement is that the weapon must have the Colt series 80 safety.

1962: My first agency issued uniforms,hat, and badge. I had to purchase everything else. Pay was $2500.00 a year. Many agencies only issued the badge.

 

[Old Corp]

The department I retired from in NC (700+ size) went to autos in 1990 with the S&W M1076 10mm. In 1999, when ammo costs became horrible for that round they went to the M4566 and CS45. I retired with, and was given a 4566. Shortly thereafter they adopted the M&P full size .45, and I understand that range scores have not been this good in a long time.