How many times does one confront multiple targets? A competent shooter makes do with fewer shots.
My experience has been after the first couple shots, the perps will either run off or surrender.
.40 vs .45 caliber
- Thread starter starbuck
- Start date
How many times does one confront multiple targets? A competent shooter makes do with fewer shots.
My experience has been after the first couple shots, the perps will either run off or surrender.
Almost agreed, and certainly do not disagree.
Yet a marginal hit with a .45acp will likely cause more trauma than a vital hit with a 9mm.
As to cost, I buy wholesale and pay a lot less than $45 per 100 for 230 gr .45acp rounds. No, it is not cheaper than a 9mm round but a more effective caliber and I feel my life is worth the difference in cost.
Moonman
Member
The 45ACP makes a nicer wound channel, but SHOT PLACEMENT is still the KEY.
I like/love the 1911 period.
I like/love the 1911 period.
ElectroMotive
Member
I cant believe its almost 2012 and we are still comparing service calibers to one another. Furthermore we are still using terms like muzzle energy, energy dump, and knockdown power when there has been ample evidence that state those terms have nothing to do with terminal ballistics (aka the science of what bullets do in human bodies).
20+ years ago an FBI Special Agent named Urey Patrick, with the FBI's Firearms Training Unit, wrote a landmark paper called Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It has withstood peer review, academia review, and most importantly, the test of time. It goes into detail of how pistol caliber rounds work, and why, without talking over the readers head. Google the title, and you can pull it up in .pdf form.
Pick a good bullet from Dr Roberts reccomended data set, in whatever caliber you like, and then go shooting.
20+ years ago an FBI Special Agent named Urey Patrick, with the FBI's Firearms Training Unit, wrote a landmark paper called Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It has withstood peer review, academia review, and most importantly, the test of time. It goes into detail of how pistol caliber rounds work, and why, without talking over the readers head. Google the title, and you can pull it up in .pdf form.
Pick a good bullet from Dr Roberts reccomended data set, in whatever caliber you like, and then go shooting.
ElectroMotive
Member
If one were to stroll over to KeepandBearArms.com, which keeps track of as many self defense shootings as possible, the number of shooting involving multiple assailants is quite high. Not only thay but if you go back to when they first started, you will note that the numbers of multiple attacker shootings are a growing trend
How many shootings with multiple armed attackers have you been involved in?
There's a gentlman sitting next to me who is a former patrolman and detective with a large agency in North Texas who has been in several shooting with multiple badguys, he says none ever gave up or surrendered after the first shots. Only when they realized they had lost did they give it up. But hey, gunfights are fluid situations and cannot know what is going to happen in them.
How wrong can you get? I dont know whats worse, the fact that you made that claim, that you believe that non-sense, or that you are spreading it.
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machz1
Member
dont forget one of the big issues for LE was the actual frame size and weight of the 45's. a lot of smaller framed agents and women couldnt comfortably handle it. the .40 is a GREAT cartridge and was developed specifically for maximum LE needs. it has basically the exact same speed with only a slight loss of ft/lbs. most LE cartridges are looked at in the 950 ft per sec speed for ideal penetration of various substances that officers might encounter.
That is why I put "average cop" in quotes. I have seen all kinds and it is a great concern to put an officer on the street armed with a handgun they struggled to control.
When we still used revolvers, some of them had trouble shooting a qualification course of 50 or 60 rounds of double action because of the "hard trigger pull." I am a revolver fan, but it is not for everyone.
I think that the 40 is a fine cartridge. I have carried both the 45 and the 40, but the 45 is not for everyone either.
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I carried an M1911A1 in .45 until the Army forced that M9 thing on us and never doubted it. Now, my agency issues the Glock 22 in .40, and I don't doubt it's capabilities either.
Off duty, I carry a 3 inch Model 13-3 in .357 Magnum. Yes, I'm a true believer.
ECS
Off duty, I carry a 3 inch Model 13-3 in .357 Magnum. Yes, I'm a true believer.
ECS
I've shot quite a number of animals with handguns. Consequently I can't believe in stopping power no matter how much I want to. Big bores are psychologically comforting.........but they really guarantee nothing. Adequate penetration in a vital area will cause death. Instant stopping is awfully random. In my own experience on animals over 3 pounds the best "stoppers" have been the .22 WMR and the 9mm Parabellum ---which proves nothing since the statistical sample is small.
I'm sure most everyone here knows there are only two ways to stop a living creature. Hitting the central nervous system or blood loss.
So, as some have stated, the main thing that counts is shot placement. It is EVERYTHING. People have been killed with virtually every caliber known to man. What's perfect for you is a weapon & caliber that you shoot very well. That means, hitting your target consistantly & conducting reloading & stoppage drills until they are second nature,
After the fight is over, people won't remember what gun or caliber was used by whom. They will only remember who won.
Just remember, any handgun caliber will kill you. A .45 will kill you better!
So, as some have stated, the main thing that counts is shot placement. It is EVERYTHING. People have been killed with virtually every caliber known to man. What's perfect for you is a weapon & caliber that you shoot very well. That means, hitting your target consistantly & conducting reloading & stoppage drills until they are second nature,
After the fight is over, people won't remember what gun or caliber was used by whom. They will only remember who won.
Just remember, any handgun caliber will kill you. A .45 will kill you better!
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Baised on my personal experience I much prefer the 45 ACP as the best of all the semiautos...
The nick name for the 40 S&W is the 40, Short & Weak...
The main claim to the 40 S&W is that is a larger bore than the 9mm, yet fits in the same size pistol...
The nick name for the 40 S&W is the 40, Short & Weak...
The main claim to the 40 S&W is that is a larger bore than the 9mm, yet fits in the same size pistol...
Retired LTC USAR
US Veteran
[/QUOTE]To maintain proficiency, you have to shoot 200 rounds or more a month - 100 to get back to baseline, and another 100 to work on improvements. [/QUOTE]
I must disagree with this comment.
Look at the targets I shot with a new to me 625-3. Never shot this gun, plus it had been 6 months since my last range visit. I believe that once you develop the fundamentals you always have them.
I must disagree with this comment.
Look at the targets I shot with a new to me 625-3. Never shot this gun, plus it had been 6 months since my last range visit. I believe that once you develop the fundamentals you always have them.
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Some people are "naturals," others have to practice. Champions like Tiger Woods do both. Let's see some cloverleaves.
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M2MikeGolf
US Veteran
No professional in the world of shooting (targets, wildlife, aircraft, armored vehicles or personnel, just to name a few) believes, practices or preaches that. Once you learn the fundamentals of anything, you must continually practice them in order to apply them effectively.
Shooting paper on a static range is much different than shooting at armed personnel.
This is a "I say tomayto, you say tomawto" argument. You always find those that are dead set for one cartridge or the other. "In my experience" is a statement that can be gauged only by the actual experience one has had such as shooting paper, rocks, people, animals, jet aircraft, etc.
The end of the story is that virtually any firearm is only as deadly as the shooter, and deadly is one who is trained and practiced. The difference in .40 S&W and .45 ACP (and many other cartridges for that matter) is in that shooter, not 10 ft. lbs of energy or 50 fps in velocity; as cartridges go, those two are not much different ballistically. Pick the apple or orange you like, and learn how to use it, and train with it and then you can make up movie scripts on how many zombies you can kill or hoards of insurgents or whatever, but base your effectiveness on your actual proficiency level. Proficiency is developed only by knowledge and practice. That is also of extreme importance regarding weapons safety.
If one is going to disparage a caliber or cartridge, one should base one's comparison on actual applicable use. Either of these cartridges is capable of it's designed use in the hands of a trained and practiced shooter within the limits of that weapon. Handguns are difficult to employ effectively without this concept, which is why the
My experience with weapons and their use is purely a military one. However, the basic principles for effective use of all weapons, short range, long range, direct and indirect are all the same. Training and proficiency is how you succeed on the battlefield, even if that battlefield is in your front yard or your living room.
StatesRightist
Member
Exactly, excellent post. It never ceases to amaze me how people swear any caliber is the be all, end all caliber. Each has it's strength and weaknesses. The answer is always the same, pick the caliber you shoot the best. Placement is number 1. Yes, .38 or 9mm are probably the lowest predictably effective SD calibers, but if you can hit with a .380 and not a 9mm or .38, carry a .380.
I like the .45 because I shoot it better and prefer the push recoil to the wrist roll of the .40, but to each his own. Both are good SD choices.
Finally, number of rounds is a weak argument. People should carry multiple guns, all with reloads. Otherwise, you are one parts failure from having an expensive paperweight and being a target.
omie01
Member
I just had to figure this one out as well, I've been searching for that gun thats going to grow old with me and be my long time friend that I trust implicitly, I started with a Kimber Eclipse, .45, really love it, and I dont have a problem carrying a heavier gun, but Only 8 rounds. I knew the .40 has a higher capacity so I bought the S&W .40 M&P, love this gun as well! So, which do I carry? Both of them! I just switch out the weeks I carry them! I practice with both, and use the same style holster for both! As far as I'm concerned they are about equal! I do shoot a little better as far as bullseye's with the Kimber, but the M&P still gives me about a 2" grouping so I am confident with both, The Kimber needs a safety to be released to used, so I can see myself carrying the .40 a little more for draw speed alone, but love and use them both! I dont know if this helps any, but thats my 2 cents worth!
T-BoneFL
Member
Assumming you shot both weapons exactly the same (i.e accuracy, speed, etc), the question really comes down to which one is better.
Comes down to the ammo and barrel length. Which bullet expands the most for a given barrel length? Which one has the desired penetration without over penetrating?
But I am a novice and could be wrong.
-T
Comes down to the ammo and barrel length. Which bullet expands the most for a given barrel length? Which one has the desired penetration without over penetrating?
But I am a novice and could be wrong.
-T
I just like the .45 ACP better because.. its bigger and bader and my great grand pappy used it... all scientific reasons.
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