Wilson Combat. Very nice. But...

[ChattanoogaPhil]

After all these years finally got a chance to shoot a Wilson Combat. It was a new full size X-Tac with adjustable sights.

Went through about 150rds. Some of my 200gr SWC reloads and 230gr RN. Real nice gun. You could feel the difference racking the slide, very tight and smooth. Trigger felt a bit shorter and lighter than my Colt and Kimber 1911s. I shot about the same with it as I do with my Kimber and my guess is that with more practice and working up some loads I might shoot a bit better.

BUT... I kinda wish I hadn't shot it. Very nice in every respect, but it didn't live up to the hype I had invented in my mind.

 

[Frank237]

I shot a Wilson several years back and within a week saw one for $1200 on a site. Immediately bought it. That $1200 is laughable now.

Mine is a std 5", CQB model, few bells and whistles. It has been 100% reliable as well as very accurate. Especially with 185-200 gr SWC target ammo. Amazingly accurate!

Not wanting to start anything here with the various doubters, detractors, etc. But simply handling one of the top tier 1911's one can FEEL a difference in the crispness of the safety, the smoothness of racking the slide, the old time fit and finish, etc. Then throw in the accuracy.

I think You get what You pay for with Wilson, Nighthawk , Ed Brown, etc.

 

[WVSig]

I like high end 1911s. I like true custom bespooke guns made exactly to spec from a bare frame or base gun. I also like off the shelf customs like Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc...

Are they worth it? I am not sure but the law of diminishing returns definitely comes into play. a $3000 Wilson is not 300% better than a $1100 Dan Wesson. It is better but when you get to a certain level you pay 2x or 3x more for very small gains and 99% of the time the $1000 1911 is not the weak link in the chain. 99% of the time it is the Indian not the arrow.

They sure are pretty!

 

[R0CKETMAN]

I like high end 1911s. I like true custom bespooke guns made exactly to spec from a bare frame or base gun. I also like off the shelf customs like Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc...

Are they worth it? I am not sure but the law of diminishing returns definitely comes into play. a $3000 Wilson is not 300% better than a $1100 Dan Wesson. It is better but when you get to a certain level you pay 2x or 3x more for very small gains and 99% of the time the $1000 1911 is not the weak link in the chain. 99% of the time it is the Indian not the arrow.

They sure are pretty!

Have you priced a DW lately? You're waaaay off

DW makes a fine 1911 for the money. They are production guns as opposed to a semi custom such as say Wilson, Baer, EB, NH, GI, ect

The one thing that stands out about Wilson, other than the best customer service in the firearms industry, is that they run.

 

[Frank237]

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard ALL of that before. Same with the "Indian and the Arrow" stuff.

In a short number of years I'll be gone. I doubt if I'll lament the money I spent on hi end guns.....as I lay there thinking about WHAT I did in my life.

And...Sometimes it IS the Arrow and not the Indian.

 

[Sevens]

I have found it quite difficult to describe my perspective in a forum without it often being misconstrued in multiple ways. I'm starting to accept the fact that I know what I think, mean and KNOW, even if I have a hard time getting the point across.

The elite handguns are different and they are better and not by a tiny little bit. Are they $1,000 or $2,500 better than Brand X? Well, that is for each buyer/owner to decide.

I've dabbled in 1911's and I thoroughly enjoy them, though they are NOT my passion. Of the known higher ends, I have shot and owned Baer's and Browns, never had occasion to shoot or own a Wilson. Of those, Baer is my preference. Also shot a couple DW's and (especially for the price), I find them to be fantastic.

My passion is high-end S&W, Performance Center and Model 52's. We shall all be free to make our arguments but if you try to tell me that the gun itself has very little to do with, I can only come to two possible conclusions:

1) You are amongst the human elite, if you can make my 659 do what my 845 can do.

2) The level of proficiency you expect, demand or are aware of doesn't jive with mine.

In either case, any argument telling -ME- that the gun has precious little to do with it... well, it would appear that our skills and true enjoyment are far enough apart that it's a waste of bandwidth to argue it. And I sincerely hope that are are #1 because I am certain that I'm not that good.

 

[Aircrewman]

The Wilson Combat 45s are some of the finest autos made. However, they are not overwhelmingly better than many others' fine 45 autos. In my opinion, which is worth only as much as a bucket of water in Lake Superior, the 45s made today by a handful of "custom," "semi-custom" makers are some of the finest handguns made in todays manufacturing processes. I include 45s made by Springfield Armory, and, of course, Colt and others that I can't remember right now. Again, however, Wilson's guns work well but so do others. I have a Tac Elite and it is really fine. Shoots well and looks good but so does my Series 70 Mk IV Gold Cup. I really like my Tac Elite but was kinda underwhelmed after I bought it. It is the most expensive handgun that I have ever bought... and won't spend that kind of money again. This is not to bash Wilson. I am glad that I bought it and will not ever sell it but it seems that it is awfully expensive for a "Government 45."

One thing that I will rave about and never feel underwhelmed about is Wilson's customer service. It is simply the best, above all others, in the business. I think so highly of Wilson that I will not send ANY of my 45s elsewhere for work (except Colt). I sent them a Les Baer "Thunder Ranch Special" for a refinish and a trigger job. They not only refinished it perfectly to my specific request but did the trigger job exactly as requested AND replaced a rear sight that I did not realize needed replacing at no extra charge. Simply the best customer service in the business. I was overwhelmed by that. I think that the problem with Wilson is that they have a "desire" or "gotta have" aspect to them by buyers that have driven the price up faster than Wilson can meet demand and that drives cost and availability not necessarily the product itself.

OK. I'm going to stop rambling. I just wanted to agree with ChattaoogaPhil that I too was somewhat underwhelmed when I bought my first Wilson Combat. But they are very nice 45s.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I shot one several years ago along with an Ed Brown. I was impressed. I too could feel the difference. But I gotta say, my Dan Wesson Heritage is very close and $2000 less.

 

[Hapworth]

Have you priced a DW lately? You're waaaay off...

Not quite; whereas you're correct for most of the DW line, the Heritage lists at $1298 with a street price just over $1100. It's a sleeper -- built with the same parts and by the same hands as DWs top end items, just no extra frills. Superb value.

 

[R0CKETMAN]

Not quite; whereas you're correct for most of the DW line, the Heritage lists at $1298 with a street price just over $1100. It's a sleeper -- built with the same parts and by the same hands as DWs top end items, just no extra frills. Superb value.

Not even remotely comparable to the Wislons, Ed Brown, or Les Baers you referred to in your earlier post.

It's a production line gun where the front strap isn't even checkered.

If you wish to attempt to draw a remote comparison to the manufacturers you noted, then it would be the Valor.

 

[WVSig]

I have found it quite difficult to describe my perspective in a forum without it often being misconstrued in multiple ways. I'm starting to accept the fact that I know what I think, mean and KNOW, even if I have a hard time getting the point across.

The elite handguns are different and they are better and not by a tiny little bit. Are they $1,000 or $2,500 better than Brand X? Well, that is for each buyer/owner to decide.

I've dabbled in 1911's and I thoroughly enjoy them, though they are NOT my passion. Of the known higher ends, I have shot and owned Baer's and Browns, never had occasion to shoot or own a Wilson. Of those, Baer is my preference. Also shot a couple DW's and (especially for the price), I find them to be fantastic.

My passion is high-end S&W, Performance Center and Model 52's. We shall all be free to make our arguments but if you try to tell me that the gun itself has very little to do with, I can only come to two possible conclusions:

1) You are amongst the human elite, if you can make my 659 do what my 845 can do.

2) The level of proficiency you expect, demand or are aware of doesn't jive with mine.

In either case, any argument telling -ME- that the gun has precious little to do with it... well, it would appear that our skills and true enjoyment are far enough apart that it's a waste of bandwidth to argue it. And I sincerely hope that are are #1 because I am certain that I'm not that good.

I think you have a hard time getting your point across because you fail to actually fully consider and understand what others have posted and your post comes across as condescending. It seems like you took peoples words too literally.

You picked an example that is outside the discussion to prove your point. We are talking 1911s not S&Ws. In your example you are comparing two different designs. When talking about 1911s we are not. A good shooter, not a world class shooter, can take a DW Heritiage 1911 and do just about everything they could do with a Wilson, Les or Brown.

There is a difference in the actual gun but if the DW is in spec it will run with the big boys. Now it might not be a pretty and well finished around the edges but it will do its part. Sometimes the lower cost gun will out perform the higher.

A while back Dave Severns did a 1911 shootout and IIRC the highest cost gun, an Ed Briwn was the second least accurate. It only beat out a bone stock Colt Combat Elite and barely beat a Sig GSR and a Kimber. A stock DW Valor beat the Ed Brown as did a Fusion CBOB. This is a very small data set and it not to be taken as universal but I can tell you if I owned that Kobra I would not be happy. Wilson was not included in this test and the Colt is clearly a dog.


https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=255555

1. Severns Modified Valor 0.98”
2. Les Baer TRS 1.17”
3. Dan Wesson Valor 1.36“
4. Fusion CBOB 1.44”
4. Sig GSR 1.76”
5. Kimber Classic Custom 1.94”
6. Ed Brown Kobra 1.96”
7. Colt Combat Elite 5.03”

Within the 1911 world the differences between a $1100 DW Heritiage is less than most people know. IMHO I have shot them side by side with big boys. I have shot custom 1911s costing half of what a Wilson costs and they kept up. They did not have all the bells and whistles or look as pretty but they ran with the top off the shelf semi customs which in the end is what matters.

 

[WVSig]

Not even remotely comparable to the Wislons, Ed Brown, or Les Baers you referred to in your earlier post.

It's a production line gun where the front strap isn't even checkered.

If you wish to attempt to draw a remote comparison to the manufacturers you noted, then it would be the Valor.

Does front strap checkering make the gun more reliable or accurate? If you want to use the Valor instead of the Heritage add $350 to the price. I can buy them all day long for about $1450 shipped and transfer it for $20 which still makes it half of a Wilson CQB.

I am not saying that high end 1911s are not worth what they cost. I like them and own a few but what I am saying is in line with the OP that the difference between them and higher end production guns like a DW is not as large as we are lead to believe from the hype.

Look at the data from the Severns shootout. The Les Baer TRS outshot a stock Valor by .19" at 50 yards. I can get a stainless Valor for $1450 a Les Baer TRS costs $2,290.00. Is .19" worth the extra coin? The $1450 Valor outshot the Ed Brown by .6" and the Brown will set you back $2695.

2. Les Baer TRS 1.17”
3. Dan Wesson Valor 1.36“

 

[Leonard]

"Look at the data from the Severns shootout. The Les Baer TRS outshot a stock Valor by .19" at 50 yards. I can get a stainless Valor for $1450 a Les Baer TRS costs $2,290.00. Is .19" worth the extra coin? The $1450 Valor outshot the Ed Brown by .6" and the Brown will set you back $2695".

Having the best is sometimes all its about, otherwise we would be having this discussion on the Taurus Forum

 

[USMCHEROS]

Like I always have said your not buying the weapon of the caliber your wanting. Your buying the name that is on the weapon such as Kimber, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Les Baer, Night Hawk, Daniel Defense, Wilson Combat or etc. I use to own two Kimbers before I sold one of them and kept the one with the Crimson trace on it.

I always wanted to shoot a Nighthawk Custom or a Wilson Combat but the local gun ranges never had any on gun rentals. To me and only to me I like Kimber they make a fine weapon even though the Kimber handguns are picky on ammunition rounds but I found that mine loves and eats Federal ball points 230 grain. The weapon shoots fine with no issues always keep in nice and excellent condition if it's not being shot down range I take it out and clean it every few weeks.

 

[WVSig]

In this Severns Shootout of CCO 1911s where Wilson was included it the Wilson did not out shoot the stock Dan Wesson CCO. Remember these are not off hand and not even shot from a rest but instead have been shot off a mechanical ransom rest taking the shooter out of the equation.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=286070&page=2

4. 2010 Dan Wesson CCO - 1.73”
5. Wilson CQB - 1.87”

People get so hung up on justifying their purchases and choices but when faced with data the reality of those choices becomes clear. There is nothing wrong with buying hi end custom or semi custom guns. They are what they are and the "value" they contain is mainly subjective to the buyer. For many people they are worth the money for others not so much.

I do think that my original statement holds true. For 99% of the people who own and shoot handguns in this country it is the Indian not the arrow that make the difference. What kills me is that too often people like Frank237 & Sevens misunderstand about the statement is ergonomics and the interaction of the shooter with the gun is all about the Indian. Sometimes the difference is just a "placebo effect" because people are more confident with a particular gun in their hands.

In the end there is no need to justify how you choose to spend your money. My main point is that the law of diminishing returns is 100% in effect when it comes to 1911s. A Dan Wesson Heritage or Valor gets you 90% of the way to what people consider high end semi-custom 1911s at a lower price tag. That is not to say paying 2X or 3X more to eek out that last 10% is not worth the money.

I think a lot of people who have never shot a high end gun believe that a Wilson or a Ed Brown is going to feel and shoot 2x or 3x better than what they already have in the safe because of the mystic that surrounds these pistols. I am in no way saying they are not good or worth what people pay for them I am just trying to illustrate that what many people believe they are paying for is not always what they are getting.

 

[Frank237]

WV Sig,

We are all entitled to an opinion so lets agree to disagree on Your "Indian, not the Arrow" statement.

I hear that phrase occasionally and it grates on me as badly as rap music for some reason. It seems to always be the mantra of the guy who can't afford or chooses not to upgrade to the next level.

Someone buys a Freedom Arms M-83 revolver and immediately there's the detractor posting how accurate his RUGER is and it's every bit as good as that FA but at 1/3 the price.

I have been shooting LR high powered rifle for three years now. We do a weekly shoot on steel plates as well as other targets out to 1200 yds. Our closest targets are at 500 yds. If there was ever a game where IMHO the ARROW makes a difference this is the one.

You give me a guy with a Rem 700 in .308 shooting .75 MOA. Then another with a blueprinted 700 action, better barrel and match bullets shooting .2 MOA. Let the same expert class shooter shoot both, same conditions.

The second rifle with far better accuracy is going to make more hits on target than the stock gun. How is that not the "arrow"?

The accuracy games are a lot like cars/motorcycles...How much accuracy/horsepower can You AFFORD.

So when that "Indian/Arrow" statement comes up my immediate thought is rifle accuracy sports. Like LR precision rifle and Benchrest.

FN in MT

 

[RJJ 1971]

Sometimes a grail - should just stay a grail. The disappointment just isn't worth it.

 

[Stirling]

This thread sure would look good with some photos...

 

[gman51]

I had a Wilson Combat CQB compact 3" and I wasn't impressed or found it was worth a grand or two more than my Kimber. This indian couldn't get better results out of it than with my Kimber. I sold the Wilson and still have the Kimber.
I am not knocking WC guns quality at all, I just don't see them being 2-3 times worth it in price.

 

[WVSig]

WV Sig,

We are all entitled to an opinion so lets agree to disagree on Your "Indian, not the Arrow" statement.

I hear that phrase occasionally and it grates on me as badly as rap music for some reason. It seems to always be the mantra of the guy who can't afford or chooses not to upgrade to the next level.

Someone buys a Freedom Arms M-83 revolver and immediately there's the detractor posting how accurate his RUGER is and it's every bit as good as that FA but at 1/3 the price.

I have been shooting LR high powered rifle for three years now. We do a weekly shoot on steel plates as well as other targets out to 1200 yds. Our closest targets are at 500 yds. If there was ever a game where IMHO the ARROW makes a difference this is the one.

You give me a guy with a Rem 700 in .308 shooting .75 MOA. Then another with a blueprinted 700 action, better barrel and match bullets shooting .2 MOA. Let the same expert class shooter shoot both, same conditions.

The second rifle with far better accuracy is going to make more hits on target than the stock gun. How is that not the "arrow"?

The accuracy games are a lot like cars/motorcycles...How much accuracy/horsepower can You AFFORD.

So when that "Indian/Arrow" statement comes up my immediate thought is rifle accuracy sports. Like LR precision rifle and Benchrest.

See again you are moving off the OP and the subject of this thread. We are not talking about revolvers or rifles we are talking about 1911s. We are talking about the difference between a $1100 gun and a $3000 pistol specifically 1911s. Like so many who "believe" in buying high end guns you assume way to much about those who do not view it the same way you do. Even those who own said guns you seem to be playing some sort of elitist you don't understand because your poor or ignorant card.

I have pistols in my collection that are bespoke custom guns. They cost me more than a DW and just south of what Wilson charges.

I own custom BHPs, have owned Gray Guns Sig Sauers, I own Les Baers etc... so your attempt to undermine me by saying I don't have the $$$ to spend or the desire for something better than straight out of the box is a red herring because we are not talking about what I do or do not pay for my guns we are talking about what you get for your $$$ when you buy a high end semi custom like a Les Baer.

Look at the Severns shootouts that I posted. In both cases a Dan Wesson costing about $1450 out shot a gun costing almost 100% more. In one case a Wilson in the other a Ed Brown. In your rifle example what you have posted might make sense be withing the context of 1911s it does not seem to be holding true. IMHO

Per Stirlings request here are some evidence I " can't afford or chooses not to upgrade to the next level."

Custom Colt CCO by Wild West Guns



Les Baer TRS





Don Williams Custom Alloy BHP



APW Cogan T Series BHP