Winchester 1152 and 1153

[pasound]

Bought a decent quantity of 1152 and 1153 9mm's a couple of years ago. SGAmmo, plain brown boxes. Lake City overruns. 115 JFN, and 147gr JHP. All marked as duty ammo. I know these are higher pressure, +P NATO compared to SAAMI specs, but are either +P+ or does anyone know?

 

[DWalt]

Lake City? 9mm was never loaded at LC at any time that I am aware of. Can you post a picture of the box?

 

[pasound]

I think they were. Tomorrow morning I'll pull a couple of boxes out of storage.

 

[biku324]

Bought a decent quantity of 1152 and 1153 9mm's a couple of years ago. SGAmmo, plain brown boxes. Lake City overruns. 115 JFN, and 147gr JHP. All marked as duty ammo. I know these are higher pressure, +P NATO compared to SAAMI specs, but are either +P+ or does anyone know?

The pressures for the M1152 and M1153 are 39,700 p.s.i.

 

[stansdds]

SAAMI specification for 9x19mm is 35,000 PSI, +P is 38,500 PSI. At 39,700 PSI, the new M1152 and M1153 ammunition definitely falls into the +P+ category.

 

[pasound]

Ok my memory is playing some tricks. The 1153 came in two different boxes, one lot brown with the single stamping and no other printing, and the other lot plain white boxes with fine print on the bottom. One line of which reads "loaded to military velocity and pressure: average pressure is 10 to 15% higher than industry standard pressure for 9mm Luger." The 1152 came in the big 100-round boxes with the same fine print on the bottom.

The brown and white 1153 boxes are not retail marked. The 1152 is packaged like a retail box, but no one I know has ever seen it in a store, or even at a show.

What I do remember is the recoil from the 115gr 1152 is a lot more than the heavier 147gr 1153. This is subjective, I know, but was tested in both my 3913 and a friend's CZ Browning clone at the range years ago, both of us shooting from the same boxes of each. Makes me think the 1153 is 10% over, or +P, but the 1152 is 15% over, or +P+.

Headstamps on both are WMA and two numbers. The 1152 is WMA 21, the 1153 WMA17 (brown box) and WMA22 (white box). Nothing says Lake City, so I may be mixed up on that.

 

[DWalt]

WMA is the three-letter maufacturer identification code assigned by the government to Winchester's plant in Oxford MS. Plus a two-numeral year code. It really does not have to mean anything, but some believe that it means Winchester Military Ammunition or something similar. It does not. Apparently Winchester also uses the same WMA headstamp on some commercial ammunition, including .45 ACP, made at Oxford. When military ammunition was being made at Winchester's East Alton IL plant, the assigned three-letter ID code used was WCC. A manufacturer can request to use a specific ID code and it will be assigned if not already taken.

 

[pasound]

Good information. Learned something new today.

 

[LVSteve]

There are chrono tests on YT showing the 1152 really moving.

 

[Rock185]

I've chronographed the M1152 in a variety of pistols, revolvers, and a carbine. Yes, it is really moving.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I watched one YT spot, where the 147gr out of a 5" did 964fps ave in 10 shots, out of a Milt. spec pistol.

The M1152 Ball FN 115gr , .354" dia. , oal 1.1095" with 6.9 grs of ball powder
out of a 5" barrel, had an average of 1279fps.

The shooted stated that he had a 4" that matched this 5" in fps,
which makes one think that this load might be a +P+ loading ?

I would rate the 147 at +P or Nato, depending on the fps from your pistol,
in the 970fps areas, + or - .

 

[alwslate]

Brian Pearce has published many articles in handloader magazine about loading the 9mm in various handguns. The 9mm is capable of higher velocities than you might think without exceeding standard pressure limits. 115 JHPs at over 1300 fps out of a full size handgun like the Beretta 92FS or a 5" 1911.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Note Please: the SAMMI Pressure for 9mm+P 38,500, case volume 0.86 ml and for 357 SIG it's 40,000 & 1.26ml = ∆ +42% increase in case volume

Just from the Hodgdons data for a 115gr Nosler jhp in 9mm+P vs. the same bullet in 357 SIG some "food for thought", hopefully...?

9mm+P MAX 6.2gr TRUE BLUE 1190fps @ 38,300

357 SIG START 8.2gr TRUE BLUE 1217fps @ 31.900
357 SIG MAX 9.1gr TRUE BLUE. 1352fps @ 35,400

TRUE BLUE is a very fine grained powder and you can get quite a bit into these cases: a 9mm case.will easily take a LEE #0.5 dipper of 7.2gr with room for the Nosler 115gr jhp without compressing the powder & the LEE #0.7 dipper is 10.2gr in the 357 SIG case with room to spare.

Someone with QUICKLOAD can probably estimate the pressure and projected velocity for a 9mm+P load with an "extra"(?) 1g of TRUE BLUE, but I guarantee the pressure will be well over the +P SAMMI maximum.

On the other hand a 2gr increase in the 357 SIG load would fit and what the projected pressure and velocity would be might not actually exceed the SAMMI maximum: there's quite a bit of room between 35,400 and 40K. Here QUICKLOAD info would also be much appreciated.

This has indicated to me that one gets quite a bit of performance in 9mm+P with this bullet and this "by-the-book" powder combination, but there seems to be a sig(pun?)nificantly greater load development window of opportunity for further load development in 357 SIG.

Any thought or comments would be appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[LVSteve]

Just from the Hodgdons data for a 115gr Nosler jhp in 9mm+P vs. the same bullet in 357 SIG some "food for thought", hopefully...?

9mm+P MAX 6.2gr TRUE BLUE 1190fps @ 38,300

Out of what barrel length? I have a box of 115 gr FMJ rated at 1200 fps that is allegedly standard pressure. One particular tester on YT has a 5" M&P that seems to have a very fast barrel as he regularly gets readings over 1200 fps with 124 gr +P. I wondered if his chrono was off, but his velocities out of other pistols in other calibers are either about the norm or low.

 

[alwslate]

I have chronographed one domestic brand of standard pressure 115 gr FMJ ammo at 1265 fps out of my Browning HP. So 115 gr at 1279 fps out of a 5" barrel isn't +P ammo let alone +P+. Back when 9mm was cheap before the Pandemic I stocked up on the good brand of ammo. Both Speer #13 and Lyman Pistol & Revolver manuals list loads with 115 Gr HPs at over 1250 fps out of barrels of only 4" at standard pressure.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Per Hodgdons that data is from a 4.00" barrel.

My interest was regarding the small pressure "window" between 38,300 & 38,500 PSI in 9mm+P vs. 4,600 PSI in the 357 SIG example.

Cheers!

P.S. Velocity isn't always the most important consideration in effective jhp performance.

 

[pasound]

For the 115gr TCFP, it seems to be pure terminal velocity. Lots of foot-pounds hitting the target hard and fast. The 147gr JHP may need a bit more than a 3+" barrel to expand. I've only shot both in my steel gen 3 Smiths, holding out on trying them in my 365XL, waiting for some more reports before a mag dump from my new RXM.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

in some cases, and some calibers, and some bullets,, the only difference between expansion and a fancy open faced wadcutter IS 10-20 fps in impact velocity

I'm still scratching my head as to what exactly this sentence is actually referring to...?

Please explain.