Winchester 92 .357

[Teasel]

Hello, have had a Winchester 92 .357 for some years and hardly used it because it was really inaccurate mainly due to the heavy trigger pull.Anyway I took it in to my local gunsmith and had the trigger lightened. This tightned the groups up considerably but still not really tight. I was shooting wadcutter bullets and loading them so that the cases where crimped in crimping groove. I decided to seat them right out so that the shoulder of the bullet was just aft of the rifling when in the chamber.This produced pretty tight groups consistantly. However, I aquired some semiwacutter bullets and they shoot all over the place and so far, even adjusting seating depth, they refuse to group consistantly.
Any suggestians guys. (appart from going back to full wadcutters)Ian (Teasel)

 

[Paul5388]

I would suggest slugging the barrel to see what it really wants in size. Generic bullets are too hard and too small for most applications.

These keyholes were shot at 25 yards out of a .357 Handi rifle, whereas the normal holes were from a handgun with deeper rifling.

The shallow rifling and an Oregon Trails bullet that was too small and too hard were the problem.

This group was shot at 100 yards from the same Handi rifle with a bullet that would get a grip on the rifling.

 

[2152hq]

Slug the bore and check the specs.

If it's an original 92 Win in 25 or 32wcf converted to 357, most anything can be expected in the workmanship and materials.

Many of those were a rebore/re-rifle,,but many were a sleeved/liner job too.
Check rifling twist, they may have used a pistol bbl liner for 38spec.
Check & make sure there's a throat cut into the rifling, check the crown, even headspace if you can.
Make sure your sights are tight too!

The bore may be leaded causing shotgun patterns instead of groups.
Try cleaning and then some jacketed bullets and see if likes them better.

 

[Paul5388]

As far as I know, all .38/.357 barrels are 1 in 18 3/4", like the Handi rifles, and it obviously doesn't mean they won't shoot decently at 100 yards. Here's a 100 yard group with a 250 gr Beartooth .358" lead bullet loaded with 13.0 gr (not g) of Lil'Gun shot out of the same Handi rifle as mentioned before. .360 DW brass is 1.40" instead of the 1.29" of .357 Mag brass, so it works in my chamber (so will 1.50"), but probably not in too many others.

The .35 Whelen Handi is a 1 in 16" twist, but that's a different animal.

 

[NiklasP]

Because full wadcutters are giving good groups, suggest that you try Remington swaged SWC, either solids or HPs, both are 0,358, as are Remington HBWC. As mentioned by previous poster, avoid hard cast bullets, especially 0,357 or smaller.

Niklas

 

[Skip Sackett]

The only rifle that I have had good accuracy in with lead bullets is my 45Colt Puma. That being said, as Paul has a picture of a target with some 180gr XTP bullets, I have had good accuracy with the Hornady in my wife's Marlin 1894. Only difference is the bullet I use is a 158gr instead of the heavier one Paul has used.

The difference between you and I though might be the type of load we are trying to develop. I want a hunting load, you may want a target load. The load I have developed with the Hornady XTP delivers low end 35Remington performance from her rifle, right at 2100fps, give or take. It will shoot into 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yards all day long.

I did have another load for a cast bullet, the same one she used in her M586 6" revolver, that uses SR4756 as the propellant. It delivered just under 1600fps from the rifle and just under 1300fps from the handgun.


Oh, the powder for the hot load for the 158gr XTP uses Lil' Gun as the powder. Not going to list the load as it is outside of Hodgdon's listed maximum data. I can tell you this though, I got the load from loaddata.com and they got it from an issue of Handloader magazine where Brian Pearce rang out all of the potential of a 357Mag carbine.

That subscription has been one of the most interesting I have ever spent money on. I suggest it for others too.

The only thing I want to put into the equation for you is to try to keep those bullets under 1600fps, make sure you have a "lead compatible" powder driving them and stay away from a swaged bullet in that longer barrel.

Over across the pond, can you cast your own? That my dear RAF friend, would be the berries!

Cherrio, pip pip, and all that sort of rot!

 

[2152hq]

As far as I know, all .38/.357 barrels are 1 in 18 3/4", .

38/357 pistol barrels are 1 in 10" generally. Though I think Colt used 1 in 14 in the Python.
The off the shelf liners were rifled the same. The quicker twist needed to stabilize the bullet in the shorter pistol bbl. But too fast if used in a rifle application generally. Of course bullet weight comes into play.

I was just thinking if the '92 in question had been rifled with the 1 in 10 twist or even 1 in 14 ,,it may have something to do with accuracy problems at rifle ranges.

Nice group there with the HandiRifle!

 

[NiklasP]

Just reread posts to this thread and noted that actual condition of chamber and bore of this rifle is unknown to us. Simple fact that it groups well with wadcutters, which I assume to be the ordinary soft alloy or swaged HBWCs common to 32 and 36 caliber target loads, loaded out to almost touch start of rifling, suggests to me there are some serious dimensional issues (basically oversize) with chamber and perhaps throat as well, maybe even bore.

My standard approach for decades and many old rifles with quite nonstandard, variable and oversize dimensions in barrels has been to use pure lead or very soft lead alloy bullets, nearly always well oversize. They do wonders in preventing leading, getting consistent velocities, and good groups, even at 300+ meters. Some of these rifles have oversize chambers and badly eroded throats and first 5-15 cm of bore -- I never resize cases from these rifles, but, use bullets that fit snuggly and crimp nicely. All benefited from use of fine abrasive to remove roughness from pitting, greatly reducing or eliminating leading from this roughness. Velocites have typically been 1100-1400 fps, calibers from 7mm to 13mm, barrel lengths from 20 to 36 inches, chamber pressures from about 15.000 psi to 28.000 psi. Rifling was usually the deep rifling common for BP calibers in late 1800s but sometimes the shallower, even rounded rifling of early early 7mm and 8mm bottlenecked calibers.

Based on this experience, I avoid hard cast bullets unless needed because of high chamber pressures and velocities above 1400 fps. However, I typically switch to mantled bullets for higher velocities or because the shoot well in that particular gun.

Should conversion of this Win 1892 have resulted in a very non-standard, oversize chamber and bore, use of soft alloy or swaged bullets could be shortest path to good groups, as already appears to be the case.

Niklas

 

[Teasel]

Thanks for the information guys. And whoops its not a 92 but a 94AE according to the engraving on the barrel. Had it so long I 'd forgotten what it was! Anyway I bought it new as a .357.
The wadcutters that I previously used were bought cast bullets and as I said shot very tight groups when seated well out. Also I have cast my own wadcutters using a Lee mould. These also shot tight groups. By the way I am using Red Dot powder at target loads. I have yet to experiment further due to pressure of work but I will get round to it eventually.
Ian (Teasel)