Winchester M1152 Ammo in P365

[ancient-one]

The above ammo is pretty hot 9mm stuff and I wondered about using it on a limited basis in my P365.
I contacted Sig and they said OK on a limited basis but to realize as with any other gun, constant use would cause more wear on the gun parts.
Has any one shot it in a P365?

 

[murphydog]

I believe this is 9 mm NATO spec FMJ ammo, loaded to between SAAMI and + P pressure. If you want a practice load any FMJ round will suffice, if you can find it. Agree it should probably be used sparingly as Sig suggests.

 

[LVSteve]

Winchester 1152 runs about 1000 psi more than +P.

 

[BC38]

Winchester 1152 runs about 1000 psi more than +P.

+P+ ?
I am really surprised to learn that Winchester loads ammo above the SAAMI +P spec due to liability. I can just see someone putting it in their Cobra or Jiminez and having it handgrenade and take off a few fingers.

 

[LVSteve]

+P+ ?
I am really surprised to learn that Winchester loads ammo above the SAAMI +P spec due to liability. I can just see someone putting it in their Cobra or Jiminez and having it handgrenade and take off a few fingers.

It's milspec ammo for the Sig 320 fitted with a heavier recoil spring. Caveat Emptor applies.

M1152 & M1153: The Army’s New 9 mm Luger Loads | An Official Journal Of The NRA

 

[BC38]

It's milspec ammo for the Sig 320 fitted with a heavier recoil spring. Caveat Emptor applies.

M1152 & M1153: The Army’s New 9 mm Luger Loads | An Official Journal Of The NRA

Is there a disclaimer on the box to only use it in the Sig 320 or something? I see that Lucky Gunner shows a sale listing for the M1152 (out of stock though - of course).
If they are selling it to the civilian market and some joker blows up their pot-metal piece of junk with it they are going to have a losing lawsuit on their hands. Even if they put "caveat emptor" disclaimers on the box - because they exceeded industry standard specs.

 

[LVSteve]

I don't know what to tell you. I have a box of that Mitchell's Mausers full house 198gr stuff in 7.92x57 and there is no warning saying don't use it in a GeW 88 without an "S" mark. Maybe ammo makers have especially good lawyers.

 

[BC38]

I don't know what to tell you. I have a box of that Mitchell's Mausers full house 198gr stuff in 7.92x57 and there is no warning saying don't use it in a GeW 88 without an "S" mark. Maybe ammo makers have especially good lawyers.

LOL after seeing a million posts in reloading forums about how much the data publishers have "down-loaded" the ammo recipes, that just kind of seems contradictory.

Unless the old time reloaders are right and the current standards are so conservative that it is actually safe to exceed their recommendations - even with cheap guns.
I mean, if major manufacturers do it without worrying about the liability, maybe they are right...?

 

[reddog81]

Is there evidence that this ammo in question is going to blow up guns? FWIW a few boxes of ammo is worth more than a Jimenez 9mm.

 

[BC38]

Is there evidence that this ammo in question is going to blow up guns? FWIW a few boxes of ammo is worth more than a Jimenez 9mm.

Nope. No "evidence" - yet.
But knowing what 1000psi over the SAAMI +P specs means tells me that I wouldn't want to shoot it in a cheap gun.
Would you?

 

[reddog81]

I wouldn’t be afraid to shoot it in any of the dozen 9mm’s I own. That includes a P365.

 

[BC38]

I wouldn’t be afraid to shoot it in any of the dozen 9mm’s I own. That includes a P365.

Ahhh, but do you own any Jiminez, or any of cheap the other pot metal pistols?
Because those are the guns I have specifically and repeatedly referred to.

 

[reddog81]

Ahhh, but do you own any Jiminez, or any of cheap the other pot metal pistols?
Because those are the guns I have specifically and repeatedly referred to.

Nope. Extended shooting of any 9mm ammo is a questionable prospect with those gun. It’s not necessarily unsafe but the guns will batter themselves and wear out quickly.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My guess is that it will shoot low and be frustrating.

 

[BC38]

Nope. Extended shooting of any 9mm ammo is a questionable prospect with those gun. It’s not necessarily unsafe but the guns will batter themselves and wear out quickly.

OK then, we're not talking about the same thing, because I was talking about overpressure ammo in cheap guns. Quality guns are a completely different topic altogether.

 

[reddog81]

Do you have ANY evidence to support your assertion that the ammo is going to blow up guns?

 

[alwslate]

I think all production guns must pass proof loads that are well above any production ammo. According to BP most all handguns have about a 100% safety margin before blow up. So, beat up, probably, blow up, no.

 

[BC38]

Do you have ANY evidence to support your assertion that the ammo is going to blow up guns?

Do you have ANY knowledge of reloading or ammo specs?

Here's a little tutorial.

SAAMI specs define the SAFE pressure specifications for ammo.
They define the maximum safe pressure level for STANDARD ammunition, and in the case of 9mm (and a few other calibers) they also define the maximum safe pressure for +P (higher than standard pressure) ammo. These MAXIMUM pressure levels are what the gun manufacturers design their products to handle.

Since SAAMI specs define what pressure levels are safe, exceeding SAAMI pressure specifications is by definition UNSAFE.

That isn't my opinion, that is the industry standard.

If this ammo exceeds the SAAMI standard pressure for 9mm +P ammunition (which the entire industry defines as the maximum safe pressure for any 9mm ammo or firearm), as has been stated, it is by definition loaded to UNSAFE pressure levels. Just to be clear, excessive pressure is what causes guns to blow up. Whether it is from a bore obstruction or ammo that is loaded to excessive pressure levels.

Can I or anyone else say for certain that someone's gun is going to blow up using this ammo? No. Because I can't even say for sure that some dolt is going to try shooting it through some piece of pot metal junk. However, given the frequency of new shooters asking "can my gun handle +P ammo around here, the odds are pretty high that one of them will try this stuff in their pot metal Saturday Night Special.

But the fact is that I never said it will blow up on someone.

What I said is that IF that happens the manufacturer is in for a big lawsuit. Because they exceeded the industry standards for SAFE ammo.

Clear now?

 

[BC38]

I think all production guns must pass proof loads that are well above any production ammo. According to BP most all handguns have about a 100% safety margin before blow up. So, beat up, probably, blow up, no.

BP? Not sure what BP is in this context. You are probably right, MOST manufacturers will PROBABLY exceed the proof spec. But that certainly doesn't guarantee that they all will.

For 9mm SAMMI specs are 35,000 PSI for +P and the proof pressure is only 42,000 PSI. So proof pressure for 9mm firearms is only 20% above the maximum pressure standard for 9mm +P ammo.

Quality gun manufacturers will adhere to the proof pressure standards and even exceed them. Manufacturers of cheap pot metal guns like the one's I've been referring to? Maybe. Maybe not. If they do I'd be willing to bet a 100 dollar bill that some of them barely do. And that is for their NEW guns. One that has already experienced metal fatigue from being shot a bunch, and/or possibly battered/abused with +P ammo? Likely not so much.

 

[alwslate]

BP stands for Brian Pearce who is almost certainly the best gun writer yet to come along. He writes for Handloader and Rifle magazine and if you have read any of his articles you will realize that we are lucky to have him. If there has ever been any 9mm auto that has actually blown up with any factory ammo I would like to see real examples. And as for “pot metal” handguns produced today how many do you know of that have pot metal barrels?