Winchester M97 riot gun Value ( addl pics)

[Narragansett]

Hi,
I have a M97 Riot gun 12 ga, 20 , cyl bore, that was made in the 40's. She story is, I was in a LGS in the mid 70's, and an old man came in to sell this gun. He did, and I bought it right up. H said it was refinished by Winchester in the late 60's. The wood was was not refinished, and has a few slight character marks. There is a slight dent in the feed tube that does not impede the feeding of shells, and is ever so slight.

I am thinking of selling this. No rust, pits or scratches. I have fired it, but it has been sitting in my safe for over 40 years unused. I know there are a lot of cut off guns out there, but this is a true riot model.

Any idea on value?
Thanks

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I love 97's! That is a nice short shotgun. True Riot guns were not on take down frames. (some war-time guns were factory fitted with heat shield and bayonet lug and shipped for civilian guards) Does the barrel match the stamped choke mark?

Ivan

 

[Narragansett]

I love 97's! That is a nice short shotgun. True Riot guns were not on take down frames. (some war-time guns were factory fitted with heat shield and bayonet lug and shipped for civilian guards) Does the barrel match the stamped choke mark?

Ivan

Not sure what your last sentence means. Are you asking me if I have checked the choke by gauge to see that it is a straight tube from the forcing cone to the muzzle? If so, no I have not. verified the CYL barrel stamp

 

[444 Magnum]

Pete,
I'm going to politely disagree with you about the wood. The butt stock appears to have been refinished. Factory Winchester walnut on standard guns will have a natural "dimpling" in the grain of the wood.
Stocks were divided into three main categories-straight grain, deluxe (which had sub-categories) and straight grain that would qualify for "extra finish". The extra finish wood was straight grain wood that had a little character but did not qualify as deluxe. This wood would have been sanded extra to give it the smooth finish and then the varnish or oil. Extra finish stocks were reserved for firearms with special order features that were not deluxe models.
The standard model 97 riot gun would not have been stocked from the factory with extra finish wood. The smoothness of your stock indicates a mild sanding and refinish. This extra sanding is what erases the "dimpling" in the grain and brings out the vertical lines that your stock has.
Its very nice wood, but like the bluing, I believe it has been reworked.
...but I'm saying this based on one picture and I've been wrong before...just ask my wife...

Steve

As far as value, I would look up recent sales for guns in similar condition.

 

[Narragansett]

Pete,
I'm going to politely disagree with you about the wood. The butt stock appears to have been refinished. Factory Winchester walnut on standard guns will have a natural "dimpling" in the grain of the wood.
Stocks were divided into three main categories-straight grain, deluxe (which had sub-categories) and straight grain that would qualify for "extra finish". The extra finish wood was straight grain wood that had a little character but did not qualify as deluxe. This wood would have been sanded extra to give it the smooth finish and then the varnish or oil. Extra finish stocks were reserved for firearms with special order features that were not deluxe models.
The standard model 97 riot gun would not have been stocked from the factory with extra finish wood. The smoothness of your stock indicates a mild sanding and refinish. This extra sanding is what erases the "dimpling" in the grain and brings out the vertical lines that your stock has.
Its very nice wood, but like the bluing, I believe it has been reworked.
...but I've been wrong before...just ask my wife...

Steve

As far as value, I would look up recent sales for guns in similar condition.

Steve, I will look closer, but I really do not think it was redone. However I see your point and it is well taken.

I could not find any recent auctions

TX

 

[444 Magnum]

I did a quick search of completed items on GB and found the following sale prices for original guns: $1775, $1825, $2036, $2200, and $3375. These appeared to be original condition-some issues. The $3375 sale was a 1920's gun and didn't look any nicer than the gun's around $2K.

The old rule of thumb on a refinished gun is 50% of the value of an original gun in like condition. This, of course, depends on the quality of the refinish/restoration and how badly someone else wants it. I've seen quality restorations bring much more.

The original trench guns with the heat shield, bayonet lug, and military markings obviously bring more.

The riot guns were utilitarian, not for show. There are some riot and trench guns for sale on GB and GI. If you look at them, you'll see the difference in the grain structure of the butt stock that make's me think yours has been enhanced.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I'm not knowledgeable about 97's other than I have a takedown model made around 1917. The serial numbers on both barrels match the receiver so it came from the factory with two barrels. Mine has a 20" cylinder barrel. Obviously not a riot gun because it's a take down. I think it's a special order gun. The stock has not been messed with except the pad was replaced by me. I know the history of the gun. The original butt pad had disintegrated. Butt plate on yours indicates it's a lower grade riot model, but that stock looks odd. Especially aft of the grip. Could be that it's how they came in the later years, no idea. Go on line and get the year it was built.

A picture might give you an idea of an original stock configuration and what it might look like after being around for over 100 years. The gunsmith I had clean it up and check it over wanted to re-blue it. I told him it was a family gun that my dad used in the 50-60's and I wanted it left as it was. I had no interest in selling it.

Hope this helps to set a price on yours. I have no idea what mine is worth. Probably not much in that condition.

Nothing unusual about a gunsmith restoring and old piece to what they think looks pleasing to the eye and in general that's a nice looking 97. If I were a CAS hombre I'd lay down $500 for it if it ran. Parts are like hens teeth and there's a million in a 97.

 

[Narragansett]

I did a quick search of completed items on GB and found the following sale prices for original guns: $1775, $1825, $2036, $2200, and $3375. These appeared to be original condition-some issues. The $3375 sale was a 1920's gun and didn't look any nicer than the gun's around $2K.

The old rule of thumb on a refinished gun is 50% of the value of an original gun in like condition. This, of course, depends on the quality of the refinish/restoration and how badly someone else wants it. I've seen quality restorations bring much more.

The original trench guns with the heat shield, bayonet lug, and military markings obviously bring more.

The riot guns were utilitarian, not for show. There are some riot and trench guns for sale on GB and GI. If you look at them, you'll see the difference in the grain structure of the butt stock that make's me think yours has been enhanced.

Thanks for the research. I guess I will have to pull it out and study it a bit more. Especially the stock. As for a date, I looked it up once, and just cannot remember. Something wants to make me say 1942-43

 

[s&wchad]

I’m not sure that would be classified as a riot gun. While it is choked cylinder bore, it also has a solid rib. That’s a pretty unusual combination. The refinish looks pretty nice, but there’s no way to verify if Winchester actually did it.

How long is the barrel? The best way to check it is to drop a tape measure or rod down the barrel and measure from the bolt face to the muzzle.

 

[ColbyBruce]

You asked for a value, maybe this will help you. I bought a Win. 97 12 gauge in 2017 for my brother. He totally stripped it, cleaned it, replaced the bushing to tighten the barrel to the receiver…then cut the barrel and reset the bead. Here are a few photos of his.

 

[ColbyBruce]

Part number 11, the adjusting sleeve, is what was replaced to tighten up the receiver.

 

[Narragansett]

I’m not sure that would be classified as a riot gun. While it is choked cylinder bore, it also has a solid rib. That’s a pretty unusual combination. The refinish looks pretty nice, but there’s no way to verify if Winchester actually did it.

How long is the barrel? The best way to check it is to drop a tape measure or rod down the barrel and measure from the bolt face to the muzzle.

Sticking a tape down the bbl to the bolt, the bbl measures 20.5".

I am not sure what you mean by a solid rib. There is no rib on the barrel. Smooth and round.

 

[Drm50]

Win 97 Riot & Trench guns are the Rip Van Winkles of sleepers. When I was a kid they were dirt cheap. Nobody wanted them. I put rifle sights on several Riot models and stripped unnecessary hardware off Trench models.
Now guys are wanting to build look alike Trench guns out of aftermarket
accessories. 97s of all kinds are bringing higher dollar than M12s, per same condition. The Cowboy stuff has brought it back. The demand was of such that Chinese copies are made. The cost of the Chinese junk has run up the price of original Win 1897s. A lot of them are still being whacked to Riot size.

 

[Narragansett]

Win 97 Riot & Trench guns are the Rip Van Winkles of sleepers. When I was a kid they were dirt cheap. Nobody wanted them. I put rifle sights on several Riot models and stripped unnecessary hardware off Trench models.
Now guys are wanting to build look alike Trench guns out of aftermarket
accessories. 97s of all kinds are bringing higher dollar than M12s, per same condition. The Cowboy stuff has brought it back. The demand was of such that Chinese copies are made. The cost of the Chinese junk has run up the price of original Win 1897s. A lot of them are still being whacked to Riot size.

The serial number of this gun is 8811316 which I believe it would be 1941. Possibly 1940. There is an E above the serial number, and both the bbl and receiver have the same serial number.

I am still looking for some idea of value beyond the GB information

TX

 

[LostintheOzone]

Sticking a tape down the bbl to the bolt, the bbl measures 20.5".

I am not sure what you mean by a solid rib. There is no rib on the barrel. Smooth and round.

I don't see a rib either. I don't think I've ever seen a 97 with a barrel rib. I can't find anything that mentions a 97 being available from the factory with a rib.

 

[Narragansett]

Pete,
I'm going to politely disagree with you about the wood. The butt stock appears to have been refinished. Factory Winchester walnut on standard guns will have a natural "dimpling" in the grain of the wood.
Stocks were divided into three main categories-straight grain, deluxe (which had sub-categories) and straight grain that would qualify for "extra finish". The extra finish wood was straight grain wood that had a little character but did not qualify as deluxe. This wood would have been sanded extra to give it the smooth finish and then the varnish or oil. Extra finish stocks were reserved for firearms with special order features that were not deluxe models.
The standard model 97 riot gun would not have been stocked from the factory with extra finish wood. The smoothness of your stock indicates a mild sanding and refinish. This extra sanding is what erases the "dimpling" in the grain and brings out the vertical lines that your stock has.
Its very nice wood, but like the bluing, I believe it has been reworked.
...but I'm saying this based on one picture and I've been wrong before...just ask my wife...

Steve

As far as value, I would look up recent sales for guns in similar condition.

I have looked it over closely, and I do not believe the wood was redone, or some of the slight character marks would have been sanded out I believe. I could be wrong though. i believe I heard the old man that brought in in for sale said just the metal was factory redone, but it is so many years ago. i cannot be sure

 

[Drm50]

I can’t put value on it. From pictures it looks like wood has been refinished to me. Just that fact alone causes major price difference.

 

[Narragansett]

I can’t put value on it. From pictures it looks like wood has been refinished to me. Just that fact alone causes major price difference.

Maybe tomorrow i can take a couple wood pictures close up

 

[ColbyBruce]

If you want to get a maximum price out of that non-original 97 I would suggest trying to sell it to a SASS competitor. Bring it to Georgia with you when you move. “Rolan Kraps” on the sister forum is involved with SASS at Cherokee Gun Club in Gainesville; he might could be of help re-homing a vintage Winchester.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I think you can offer it up for sale on SASS wire if you're a member.

That's where your market will be.

There was one FS over there not long ago. I'll send you a PM.