Last time I went to the range (I think temperature was upper 20's), I took my 686 with the type-2 spring and ammo loaded with CCI primers. They all fired. This was all single-action, didn't try double action.
Wolff "Power Rib" Type 2 reduced power Mainsprings
- Thread starter JayHutch
- Start date
I used to narrow and polish the main springs and shorten the rebound springs on all my S&W target revolvers, a fairly labor intensive job to get them just right.
Now I just order Wolff's #2 kits and I am very happy with the outcome .
I may still polish lightly here and there, but most of the time it's really not necessary.
Now I just order Wolff's #2 kits and I am very happy with the outcome .
I may still polish lightly here and there, but most of the time it's really not necessary.
It do make a difference! Hammer fall is shorter in DA. But if it's how you normally shoot it, then there's no worry. Unless things have changed, CCI primers aren't known for their sensitivity. The gamers usually select Federal primers for super tweaked actions instead.
diamonback68
US Veteran
Can someone please this polishing of the mainspring, narrowing I can see, but what is polishing and why?
snowman
Member
Sir,
It's not often that I've had the experience to address a fellow member's question with any significant degree of confidence, but this may be an exception to the rule.
I bought a 686-6 Plus model just like yours around eight years ago. As in your case I use it as one of my HD guns. When I first fired it on the range I couldn't believe how stiff the trigger was. I knew immediately that that had to change. I know that practice helps us to adjust to many peculiarities of a gun, but I wasn't willing to go through oodles of rounds to learn how to pull that trigger without the heaviness of it throwing off my aim in some way(and that is exactly what it did). I might add here that I am a good size fellow with pretty strong hands, forearms, and so on -so when I say that a trigger is stiff, you can take it to the bank(For a second opinion I spoke with Jerry Miculek's wife, who shot the same model and totally agreed that the stock trigger tension was far too heavy.).
As I recall I learned about the Wolff springs from the folks here on the forum, and promptly ordered a set. I also read all the discussion here about the possibility of light primer strikes when these are used. Consequently I also ordered an extended firing pin from Cylinder and Slide and installed that when I installed the Wolff springs. I'll note here that it's not the length of the pin that promotes reliable ignition, but the shape of the tip. At least at that time C&S's pins were made with a cone shaped tip which came to a point, whereas stock S&W pins had a hemispherical tip. The pointed, cone-shaped tip takes less hammer force to dent the primer than the hemispherical one.
The result has been completely satisfactory. The trigger pull is reduced enough that I can pull it straight back without moving the rest of the gun, and I've not had a single light strike in the many, many rounds I've fired. I trust it completely.
One thing that helps with that particular model, in my view and some others here, is the MIM hammer and trigger. I don't like the looks of them, but they function smoothly without any additional work on my part. If you want to know more about MIM, you should be able to find a number of threads about it by using the search function.
Just a couple things about the Wolff hammer spring which may be helpful: You asked about the effect of having a rib which doesn't mate real well with the tip of the strain screw. My own opinion, which I can't prove, is that Wolff was aware of that when they designed the spring and therefore that it doesn't present a problem with ignition. One trick that can help if light strikes occur is to pull the anvil out of a spent primer and slip the cup over the tip of the strain screw, which in effect lengthens it and thereby increases tension on the spring.
The other thing I wanted to mention about the spring is something I haven't experienced, but which others apparently have: With a LOT of shooting, the Wolff spring is reported to wear out. One of the members who hasn't been with us here for quite awhile was/is a competitive shooter, and he said that he had to replace them eventually. But he was talking many thousands of rounds.
Well, pardon the treatise; I hope it has been at least a little helpful.
Best wishes in becoming proficient with your gun.
Andy
Polishing the spring is done not to smooth or lighten the pull, but the eliminate stress risers from small imperfections on the surface of the spring. Little cuts and tooling marks create high stress areas which can lead to the start of tiny fractures. As the spring is flexed over many cycles the fractures can grow slowly. Which is one reason why springs can lose strength over time.
It's a durability mod rather than a "trigger job" thing. For most folk it's completely unnecessary. But if you dry fire a lot and shoot thousands of rounds a year it might not be a bad idea. I reckon the one 686 has had upwards of 15,000 rounds through it and probably 5-10 times that dry firing. And I'm a lightweight compared to some shooters!
diamonback68
US Veteran
I'm obviously not into high quantity firing, but thank you very much. It never hurts to learn something new every day and that I did not know. Thanks!
I usually practice target shooting at the 50 yd range, so I almost always single action. I need to do more double action for both practice and tet the primers. I normally use federal primers but have some CCI also.
OP
JayHutch
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Thank you snowman for the detailed response. I read about using the primer cap as a shim, but don't know if I like that idea.
I checked Cylinder & Slide and can't find an extended firing pin for S&W revolvers. They have "Trigger Pull Set's" in both reduced power (target use only) and standard for "duty" use. S&W Revolver Reduced Power Trigger Pull Set w/ Frame Mounted Firing Pin, New Style - Target Use Only From the pic it looks like the frame mounted firing pin is included in the "kit". Know where I can get just the extended firing pin? THAT sounds like the solution. I tiny bit longer, and slightly different shape seems to be a really good solution.
Not having light strikes yet, but don't wanna, and really can't stand the original trigger pull. A bit like a staple gun. Now it feels too light. In between would seem just right. I realize that when I have shot this gal as much as some of you (15,000 rounds plus) it will slicken up, but I'm impatient, and I may not ever get 15,000 rounds down range. Shoulda just had a smithy do a trigger job eh? Any other ideas? - hutch
ps: Duh - found the pin here: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SWfpins Says "new style" hopefully extended and has the shape Andy mentioned.
I checked Cylinder & Slide and can't find an extended firing pin for S&W revolvers. They have "Trigger Pull Set's" in both reduced power (target use only) and standard for "duty" use. S&W Revolver Reduced Power Trigger Pull Set w/ Frame Mounted Firing Pin, New Style - Target Use Only From the pic it looks like the frame mounted firing pin is included in the "kit". Know where I can get just the extended firing pin? THAT sounds like the solution. I tiny bit longer, and slightly different shape seems to be a really good solution.
Not having light strikes yet, but don't wanna, and really can't stand the original trigger pull. A bit like a staple gun. Now it feels too light. In between would seem just right. I realize that when I have shot this gal as much as some of you (15,000 rounds plus) it will slicken up, but I'm impatient, and I may not ever get 15,000 rounds down range. Shoulda just had a smithy do a trigger job eh? Any other ideas? - hutch
ps: Duh - found the pin here: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SWfpins Says "new style" hopefully extended and has the shape Andy mentioned.
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Oddly, though it's developed one short timed chamber and the rifling is well eroded at the forcing cone due to lots of jacketed bullets, the action on the 686 4" hasn't changed much in ages. Which doesn't hurt my feelings at all even though my annual round count is way down the past few years. It's still heavy enough to make me work at shooting it well. And that requires lots o' rounds downrange, unfortunately! I wish shooting the .22s would directly translate to shooting heavier calibers, but it just doesn't quite do the job, especially at speed.
(ETA: Can't think of a reason not to use a discharged primer cup for a bit more strain screw reach. Just be sure to either bottom the screw or add a lock screw to the frame to lock the strain screw in place. Otherwise, it WILL back out...)
(ETA: Can't think of a reason not to use a discharged primer cup for a bit more strain screw reach. Just be sure to either bottom the screw or add a lock screw to the frame to lock the strain screw in place. Otherwise, it WILL back out...)
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snowman
Member
JayHutch,
I checked the C&S link you provided, and it looks like they may have changed the tip configuration. However there is a shadow in their picture which makes it difficult to tell. If it were me I would call them and ask. Also, a number of members here have bought their extended pins from a company called Apex, and they report good results with them. So you might check with Apex also, and maybe open a thread in the Smithing section requesting views of the Apex pins.
I would be inclined NOT to recommend that a smith work on your gun, the reason being what I mentioned in my earlier post about the MIM hammers and triggers. They really don't need fine tuning to function smoothly, in my experience. I would cock the gun and put a drop or two of good lubricant down each side of the hammer.
Enjoy your 686 -it is a fine, fine revolver.
Andy
I checked the C&S link you provided, and it looks like they may have changed the tip configuration. However there is a shadow in their picture which makes it difficult to tell. If it were me I would call them and ask. Also, a number of members here have bought their extended pins from a company called Apex, and they report good results with them. So you might check with Apex also, and maybe open a thread in the Smithing section requesting views of the Apex pins.
I would be inclined NOT to recommend that a smith work on your gun, the reason being what I mentioned in my earlier post about the MIM hammers and triggers. They really don't need fine tuning to function smoothly, in my experience. I would cock the gun and put a drop or two of good lubricant down each side of the hammer.
Enjoy your 686 -it is a fine, fine revolver.
Andy
OP
JayHutch
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TX Andy - I do love that 686+. Believe it or not, I haven't even shot that sweet looking 6" 586 no dash with the adjustable front & rear sights yet. Hate indoor ranges with 10 lanes that allow big rifles. I like outside. I'm about to simply wade thru the 10 inches of snow and blast 50 rounds down in the ravine! - hutch
I just came back from the range, put 50 through my 686 with the type-2 spring, ammo had cci primers. Of the 50, I had one light hit firing double action. So I would say that the type-2 isn't suitable for defensive use.
I have some defensive handloads (160 gr LSWC, 14.0 gr 2400, federal 150 primer) that I trust to be 100% reliable. I also have some Federal self defense ammo that has been 100% reliable, but I don't know if it uses federal or cci primers. (they are owned by the same company now).
I have some defensive handloads (160 gr LSWC, 14.0 gr 2400, federal 150 primer) that I trust to be 100% reliable. I also have some Federal self defense ammo that has been 100% reliable, but I don't know if it uses federal or cci primers. (they are owned by the same company now).
I was sitting eating breakfast this AM and read thru this thread which kind of got me thinking. I recently bought a bunch of Wolff Power Rib mainsprings as well as an assortment of their rebound springs ranging from 12 lbs. to 16 lbs. After I received the springs I installed them in two of my S&W revolvers, a Model 14-3 and a Model 17-3. Both revolvers now have the Power Rib mainsprings and 14 lb. rebound springs. Trigger pull on both revolvers is great and I also incorporated some action work on both guns to smooth things up even more. I have not had a chance to shoot the Model 14-3 yet but the Model 17-3 hasn't had a misfire with any of the .22 rounds I have fired thru it to this point.
I also had one untouched Model 586-4 that was going to get the same treatment, but after reading this thread and seeing the question "what does just a mainspring change to a Power Rib spring do" I thought I would find out. I checked D.A. and S.A. trigger pull with my Lyman Digital gauge and got 10.75 D.A. and 4.8 S.A. averaging over 5 trigger pulls on the 586-4. I then switched the stock mainspring to the Wolff Power Rib and checked trigger pull in the same fashion and got 9.7 lbs. and 4.2 lbs. So just changing the mainspring does make a noticable difference.
I then installed a Wolff 14 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull dropped to 8.0 lbs D.A. and 2.13 lbs. S.A. So changing the rebound spring makes quite a difference and is very noticable. This is about the same results I have on my Model 17-3. I then installed a 15 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull went to 8.6 lbs. and 3.7 lbs. I am going to leave this result as is and do some polishing, but I want to see if I have any misfires with this spring rate next time I go to the range. I'll run some CCI branded primers thru the 586 and see what happens. It should be noted that none of these 3 revolvers have had any sort of work done on them before I changed the springs.
Take care and good shooting.........Rick
I also had one untouched Model 586-4 that was going to get the same treatment, but after reading this thread and seeing the question "what does just a mainspring change to a Power Rib spring do" I thought I would find out. I checked D.A. and S.A. trigger pull with my Lyman Digital gauge and got 10.75 D.A. and 4.8 S.A. averaging over 5 trigger pulls on the 586-4. I then switched the stock mainspring to the Wolff Power Rib and checked trigger pull in the same fashion and got 9.7 lbs. and 4.2 lbs. So just changing the mainspring does make a noticable difference.
I then installed a Wolff 14 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull dropped to 8.0 lbs D.A. and 2.13 lbs. S.A. So changing the rebound spring makes quite a difference and is very noticable. This is about the same results I have on my Model 17-3. I then installed a 15 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull went to 8.6 lbs. and 3.7 lbs. I am going to leave this result as is and do some polishing, but I want to see if I have any misfires with this spring rate next time I go to the range. I'll run some CCI branded primers thru the 586 and see what happens. It should be noted that none of these 3 revolvers have had any sort of work done on them before I changed the springs.
Take care and good shooting.........Rick
