Would any cop today feel an advantage with a .357 Magnum revolver?

[roundgunner]

I'm a dedicated revolver guy, but, look at the times of the master shooters at a major IDPA match.
I know it is not real life but it seems like about any encounter with 3 + zombies will favor an auto.

For me the likelihood of that is pretty small so I will keep on carrying a round gun, hopefully a 44 or 45 if the bad zombies come!

 

[J. W.]

I do not have a link, but it was on the History Channel on one of their programs dealing with developments in warfare. They quoted the numbers from DoD files. Sorry I do not have the specific link or program. It stood out so vividly, that I remembered the numbers and wrote them down.

I will, however, pursue it and try to find the link and specific program.

No offense, but the History Channel is far from being an authority on anything. I wouldn't take their info as gospel. Military hit ratios over the last 100 years has been effected much more by the development of tactics than a spray and pray mindset created by hi-cap weapons

With that said, I do tend to agree with your basic point. There is a problem within LE of officers not being able to put rounds on target. The majority of the problem is training, or the lack of. I think explaining the entire issue would take a novel...

 

[XTrooper]

Let me preface my response by saying that I love revolvers, own more revolvers than autoloaders by a 2 to 1 margin, and my EDC is a PC 627 UDR.

That said, the revolver's day is over as the best choice for a service weapon and for good reason.

I retired from the NJSP in 1991, so I was around during our transition from revolvers to semi-autos with over half my career being in the revolver era. The last incidents in which Jersey Troopers were shot while armed with revolvers (and which prompted our switch to the H&K P7M8 in 1983) both involved lone troopers facing assailants (in one case, multiple assailants) armed with high-capacity semi-automatic pistols. Both troopers emptied their six-shooters and both were shot and incapacitated (one seriously wounded and Trooper Phil Lamonaco fatally wounded) before they were able to reload.

It's fun to wax nostalgic about the "good old days" of revolvers, but any advantages they may have are far outweighed by the cold facts that their ammunition capacity is minimal and they are just too slow to reload under fire compared to autoloaders. On top of this is the virtual certainty that, nowadays, you'll be facing one or more perpetrators armed with high-capacity auto pistols. No matter how proficient you may be with a revolver, this is NOT a good situation to be in.

I would no more want to again be a Jersey Trooper armed with a revolver in today's world than I would want to be armed with a bolt-action Springfield '03 rifle in a modern combat environment. The term "undergunned" describes a real world situation and it is for valid, life-and-death reasons why today's police forces are almost universally armed with semi-automatic pistols.

The new Smith & Wesson 7-shot and 8-shot revolvers help to level the playing field and, as I stated earlier, my everyday carry weapon is my 8-shot .357 Magnum PC 627 UDR. However, if I were to put on a uniform again and go on patrol, I'd be holstering my Beretta Px4 Storm .40 S&W or one of my other autoloaders.

Regarding the Springfield 1903, it's a great rifle, BUT..........
I don't know how many of you ever had to reload under fire, but as a young Marine in Vietnam, I did. I can guarantee that NONE of you would want to be frigging around reloading a bolt-action rifle in the middle of a firefight.

 

[mtnbikerx]

XTROOPER pretty much sums it up for me. And to all LEOs - thank you for your service.

 

[BigBill]

If i had a choice i'd carry the 357mag mainly because i'm pretty good with it. I'm not bragging i'm just decent with it. Its all about making each shot count in a bad situation. Its not spray and pray its placing each shot to stop the bad guys on the spot and the 357mag will do this at any distance. If we practice with it alot and get really good with it. I try longer shots often too see how much kentucky windage we need to even make a 100yd shot too besides shooting 25yds all the time. I think we need to practice even more with longer shots and really know what our handgun can really do. Then if need be we can apply it any situation. I hope the day never comes but i'll be ready if it does.

It was once said here locally by an LEO that were lucky the bad guys don't really practice or even more innocent people would be dead.

Its not the higher magazine capacity that matters its how accurate we are that counts with each round we do have. Bill

BTW; Yup i went thru my 357mag and my 44mag days of CCW for many decades of hauling them around with me. Then i went thru my 1911/45acp, my 9mm luger and my 9mm makarov days too. But i'm full circle now back to the 41mag as my CCW. I would put my life in harms way with my 41mag or my 357mag for sure if i had too.

But Xtrooper is right too. I just hate carrying the auto's, i have them anyway. I did see a local leo in a gun shop purchasing the super sized/double round capacity mags for his auto one day. I think they all should have them. There life is in harms way everyday 24/7.

 

[holyfield]

Carried a model 10 NYPD 1984 thru 04 the only two things a revolver will do better than a Glock is put a nob on somebodies head and have it's cylinder rust shut. 6 better shots over 17 bad is so old an argument it's not oldckool,it's preschool. Thats why our brave men and women over seas fighting for us carry full semi autos, placement plus extra capacity. Wait til you r pulling 4 men out of a vehicle w/ back up minutes away and only six rounds. Old and shouldn't even be discussed anymore. Recovers r beautiful and have their place, but real patrol is not one of them, just a romantic memory.

 

[BigBill]

No offense, but the History Channel is far from being an authority on anything. I wouldn't take their info as gospel. Military hit ratios over the last 100 years has been effected much more by the development of tactics than a spray and pray mindset created by hi-cap weapons

With that said, I do tend to agree with your basic point. There is a problem within LE of officers not being able to put rounds on target. The majority of the problem is training, or the lack of. I think explaining the entire issue would take a novel...

Having the accuracy is a big problem too. I taught a co-worker who was a nam vet who still couldn't shoot a 1911/45acp accuractely. I taught him at close ranges to cover with the barrel what he wants to hit and pull the trigger. Within a few rounds his accuracy became so much better. With accuracy the distance also plays a role too.

There finally realizing the 9mm parabellum/luger round isn't a man stopper. These bad guys will fight to the death and this is the problem and why there reissuing the 45acp again slowly but surely to some of our troops. In up close and personal situations the 45acp is unmatched.(house to house search)

 

[otis24]

Green acres is the place to be......

I love everything about revolvers. Not an LEO, but would probably carry a revolver if allowed, in a rural setting. In the city, where confrontations with multiple thugs would be more of a probability, I could see the validity of an autoloader. Different jobs with different needs require different tools. I would think in MOST, not all, but MOST situations, even a city cop could get by with a revolver.

 

[kraigwy]

Yesterday was March 8th, 17 years ago, March 8th 1994 I retired. Been thinking about my career and decided to re-read this topic.

Something to think about:

Did a google, the average number of shots fired by police officers in shootouts is 2.7 rounds. Last I heard most LE service revolvers were 6 shot.

Like I said, I'm retired but I still shoot. Fact is my LE Firearms instructor certification is still current. But I still shoot. I shoot a lot of ICORE and Steel Matches. Wanted PPC but none around here. Anyway, I shoot with my old service revolver (which I was able to keep when I retired). In ICORE I can't keep up with these young kids using their 8 shot revolvers and moon clips. I can hit with the best of them but I can load as fast.

In steel its a different matter. These guys step up with 15-20 rounds in their semis firing a burst until the target gets scared and falls over. Again I can't keep up in the speed department with my six gun. But it got me to thinking. If this was a law enforcement situation instead of a shooting game, WHERE ARE THOSE EXTRA BULLETS GOING? I've seen current FBI agents empty two multi round mags at a bank of 6 targets.

In LE we have to account for our missed shots. With my revolver I may not get as many rounds off as the semi guys, but then again I don't have as many misses flying around either.

We all have our likes and dislikes based on our experience, none is totaly wrong, and none is totaly right in all situations.

For me, it doesn't matter anymore. I'm sure I'll never get back into LE. My little 642 in my pocket is probably all I'll ever need, and chances are, I'll never need it. But its fun to shoot a 5 shot 642 in an ICORE match every now and then.

For you current LE guys out there, stay safe, shoot straight, and eat a donut in my honor.

 

[BobR1]

I might as well put my 2 cents in.
I started in small town law enforcenent in 1974. My first handgun was a Hi Power. It did not shoot very accurately. I traded it for a M28 in 4" carryed in a Bianchi Border Patrol Holster, and I had speed loaders. I was very well equipped.

I took a few year break and went through the academy with a 4046 DAO S&W in 40. The instructor advised me to get another gun if I planned to qualify. I ended up being top gun in the class, with the same 4046. I was a reserve deputy sheriff for 15 years. I soon drifted away from the 4046 to a 610 with Meprolite night sights, carried in a Tex Shoemaker semi break front security holster. At the time I got that holster no real good security holsters were available for semi auto's. I was more worried about having my gun taken away in a scuffal than hi capacity. The other reason I switched to the 610 was power. I soon discovered most of my shots fired were going to be at deer and cattle hit by cars. I carried 4 moon clips on my Sam Brown, and in the winter 2 more in each jacket pocket. I always carried more loaded clips in the car. I also carried my 1911 off duty.

Then as Chief of Police in a small town I again carried the 610, and then got an XDm in 40 with TFO night sights. I also carried a 638 on my belt during the day shift. I would also carry my 1911 part of the time.
Now that I have met the criteria as a dinosaur, back to the original question.

Today 99% of your officers under 40 are not going to feel well armed with a 357 revolver. They are not shooters as we on this site are. Qualification courses are not set up revolver friendly anymore either. I have qualified with my 610 and 1911 on courses set up for hi cap guns. You have to be way better than average to make the time doing the extra reloads.
I went to a police academy qualification course a couple years with my 1911 for my yearly qualification. You should have heard the comments by the young guys. They were of the opinion I should invest in a new more modern gun. That theory was squashed when the smoke settled, and the target scoring took place. Both years my practice target and qualification target were both the hi targets of the day.
I was of the opinion that they should invest in more ammunition, range time, and training myself.
Was my equipment superior to theirs? Maby, and maby not. The main consideration was the fact that I had probably shot more handgun ammo than the entire class combined, out of a variety of handguns. Could I have done this with a 357 speedloader equiped revolver? No Way, not enough time allowed to get the reloads done. Could I have done it with my 610 or 625? Probably not enough time for them either.

Would I feel undergunned with a revolver? NO

Real world story here: Shots fired call. Someone shooting at a rural house. This is close to a meth lab bust we had just made where threats were made. As soon as I got on the secondary road, I shut down my patrol car and got my M4 out and put a round in the chamber, and put it in the front seat with me. I took off again. Around the first curve ahead was a Highway Patrol car stopped in the road getting his AR15 out of the trunk. He had the same thought that this could be an ambush that I did.
The moral of the story, if you think things will go south, get a shotgun or patrol carbine out. You never want to just be on a level playing field if you can help it.

 

[J. W.]

Having the accuracy is a big problem too. I taught a co-worker who was a nam vet who still couldn't shoot a 1911/45acp accuractely. I taught him at close ranges to cover with the barrel what he wants to hit and pull the trigger. Within a few rounds his accuracy became so much better. With accuracy the distance also plays a role too.

There finally realizing the 9mm parabellum/luger round isn't a man stopper. These bad guys will fight to the death and this is the problem and why there reissuing the 45acp again slowly but surely to some of our troops. In up close and personal situations the 45acp is unmatched.(house to house search)

Yup, being experienced with a long gun does not make one a pistol shooter. I've trained with lots of guys who are fine rifemen and combats vets. Some even decorated for their valor. However, most were poor shots with a pistol because they had never been exposed to them, even in the military.

My adacemy class went through nearly 60,000 rounds of .45 ACP for a total of about 2000 rounds per person. Even that is just a start in being skilled with a handgun. The military guys and country boys picked it up pretty fast. For some that had never shot before, they were really just begining to get up to speed and herein lies the problem. The recruits comming into LE this day and age (and really since semi-autos got popular) consists of a lower percentage of people with a pre existing skillset (i.e. combat vets and people who grew up with firearms) compared to those of the 50's, 60's and 70's.

JMO, of course, but the current hit ratio is partly a training issue and partly a result of a change in society.

 

[M29since14]

You are not going to find many current LEO's that have experience carrying a revolver, so us retired guys is where your will get answers to your question...

Last summer a local deputy walked into our office to ask about getting a part repaired for his utility tractor. He's probably in his mid-20s. I had just returned from lunch and had laid my 340PD (in pocket holster) on my desk when he walked by to leave. He did a quick double-take, paused, and said, "It that a revolver?" He then proceeded to tell me he had heard about revolvers but had never actually seen one. So we let the poor fellow have a look.

My casual analysis is that the high-capacity fans have the lead, but with a sizable share of folks saying, in effect, "hi-cap is no substitute for marksmanship." In third place are the "I can live with either one" crowd. Interesting...

 

[66 shooter]

The agency that I worked for in Florida allowed you to carry whatever you could qualify with, within certain restrictions, such as it had to be an approved major brand ie; S&W, Glock, etc, etc., to the day I retired, I carried a M-686 both in and out of uniform and never felt "outgunned", as someone else said on here "as long as you do your part". Sure I took a lot of ribbing from the black gun crowd but most of that went away at range qualification time. If I was still working the streets, I would carry a revolver and have no worries about it.

About the Miami FBI shoot out, remember the incident was concluded with Agent Ed Morales, a 12 ga. shotgun and a .357 revolver.

Best to all and stay safe.

 

[.357magger]

First question I had on this thread was, "will it make 20 pages?"

In short, I fall into the "it's the craftsman, not the tool" school of thought and was always hoping that I would work for a department that allowed ME to choose what I'd bet my life on, rather than some bureacratic program that may or may not be relevant to my daily life. Always seemed rather goofy to me that you'd grant me power of life/death but then restrict how I chose to protect my own.

Carried a variety of handguns during my time "behind the tin" but the majority of that time was with Smith .357's. Carry one today for CCW, a 686 plus 2.5" that I shoot extremely well imo. Also will carry, without hesitation, a G19 in OD green and XS sights that shoots like a drill as far as accuracy is concerned.

Just my .02.

 

[donniedee]

ok.... to back track alittle on what i said eariler, i ride a desk nowdays and have only 4 years left BUT if i was back on patrol, would carry a m&p loaded with full house 40cal with a tac light, 12ga with tripple ooo buck with extra 1oz slugs next too a decked out c.a.r. 15.

But when i do retire in 4 years ill be packing my 27-2 3.5 in with hottest 125gr hp i can get, as i wont be LOOKING for a fight BUT if i happen to walk inot a store robbery id feel totally secure with it on my hip... as well as walking in a parking lot of a mall after a late night movie with the wife. car jackers beware.... again id be switching from patrol officer poss facing multiple bad guys with them knowing im a cop.

to a dumb@@@ thinking he wants to take my cash insted gets 5 357 full house mags keeping 1 to make sure..... (would carry speed strips as well in off hand pocket...

to recap: for patrol in any area of town hi cap auto clean and fully hot loaded...


for retirement personal saftey and secure carry? not looking for multiple problems carry? 3.5 27-2 will be my bubby

THOUGHTS>

 

[Az. revolver fan]

I was one of the last model 686 "holdouts" for an LE agency in the late '90's. I did switch to the 7 shot "Mountain Gun" L-frame version when the 7 shot speedloaders became available. Outstanding weapon. However, by the mid 2000's, the gang situation became such that even I was carrying a Glock 22. The earlier post was spot-on, a handgun is not a very effective weapon in a gunfight, no matter what type. Just the handiest. The days when I would qualify on the 12 gauge, carbine, and my duty handgun all in one session would drive the point home. The hi-cap autoloader just gives you more rounds to "fight your way back to your shotgun or carbine".

 

[Cheyenne WYO]

It is one thing to shoot at moving targets. It is another to shoot while moving. It is exponentially more complicated to shoot at moving targets while moving. Throw in the stress of the target shooting back. Dynamic situations make it harder to get hits, and increasing the distance of the participants makes it even more difficult. Then throw in multiple assailants as an additional variable. For people whose job it is to fight under those conditions, I do not see the advantage of the .357 revolver.

 

[roaddog28]

I am enjoying this thread reading about the experiences from current LE officers and retired. I am not in law enforcement. I am a investigator for a state agency. But of course we don't actually get into shooting and such. I read all of the opinions pro and con on the revolver in the 357 magnum round versus the semi-auto. It appears to me unless the officer is well trained on tactics as well as shooting his firearm the chances of surviving a law enforcement situation is slim and none. A lot of reference to the famous Miami shootout is mentioned. But way back in the 1930s the average LE officer was out gunned by the mob. The officer either carried a S&W M&P 4 inch 38 special or a Colt Police Positive. The ammo was a 158 gr lead round nose. The mob was using machine guns, shot guns and still the police officers survived. Not all the time but they did.
I believe semi-autos came in law enforcement has much to do with police agencies trying to fix a problem rather than abmit poor tactics and training as the biggest problem. While I would probably choose a semi-auto myself if I was a police officer I would still make sure I was trained right and practiced a lot with my weapon. As just a average guy I go to the range once a month and shoot on the average of 200 rounds. I am not saying I am better but I know if I don't practice I probably would loose the gunfight at home and lose my life.
Howard

 

[Iggy]

Would I feel under-gunned with a 357 Mag?

Well I carried my Model 58 .41 M&P for 13 years as a WHP. I was in some durn serious squabbles with that gun and always survived.
For years the Patrol issued .38's but we could carry anything we could qualify with.. When they finally issued brand new Model 66's and told us we had to carry them, I quit and went back to ranchin'.

 

[IAhunter]

Hello, first post. This topic made me sign up.

I have been a Border Patrol Agent assigned to the southern border for 19 years now. I was originally issued a well worn 4" Ruger Security Six upon academy graduation. About a year later, I traded that in for a S&W 686 that I had to give up for a Beretta 96D in 1996. I now own one of each of those revolvers, plus a M29, M66, and M19.

With the current border climate in Arizona, and considering the rural to remote terrain of most of my stations area, I would rather go back to carrying the 686. With that said, I'd add tritium night sites and my choice of ammo (125JHP). Our current issue is the H&K P2000, with night sights, and 155JHP ammo.

The reason I would switch back is that it is my belief that at some point i may have to return fire on an assailant at greater than 50 yards and I don't believe that I am up to the task when armed with the H&K, due to the trigger, short sight radius, and coarse sights, plus the fact that every one I've fired hits low at 50 yards. I know that I can return reasonably accurate fire at that distance with the 4" 686 I currently own. We can only carry issued weapons on duty. Our agency allows us to also carry 870 pump shotguns and the full-auto Colt M4. I do carry the M4 regularly, but not always, as I am a supervisor, and most shifts I am not in the field for the whole shift.

Honestly, if allowed, I would make the switch back tomorrow. As a proud Arizonan, I carry whichever of my personally owned revolvers or semis concealed that I wish. The badge and H&K stay home.

Just my .02