Would you use your MP15-22 in a tactical class?

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DavidRSA

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I have an upcoming 3 day Carbine II clinic... been using my MP15-T in 5.56mm... wondering if its a good idea to bring along my 15-22 as well to use for some of the evolutions.

What you guys think about this? Would certainly save some $$$ on ammo.
 
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It wouldn't hurt to take it with... I think I remember seeing a picture of one of the Magpul instructors using one a while back. Not sure if it was in an actual class though or just a promo picture.

Might be a good idea to contact the trainers ahead of time and pose the question to them. See what they have to say about it.
 
Let us know how it works out if you do take the 15-22 with you and shoot some courses.
 
Take it with ya. While they are taking out loans to buy ammo for the 5.56 you will shooting and having fun.
 
"Carbine II" is run by whom? Where?

Regardless I think it's a poor idea. No. A very bad idea. ;)

Using a .22LR may be limited by the school or instructor. Plus you'll learn very little that applies to the real world -- assuming this is a good school. The ballistics don't even come close. And the reliability of these is not going to be confidence building.

-- Chuck
 
With the price and availability of 556 ammo nowadays, this might not be a far fetched idea. Many schools are very ammo intensive.

Obviously, you'd want to limit it to CQB type training, not 300 meter work. With the 15/22 controls being identical to the centerfire counterpart, the centerfire ammo cost issue, and the fact that training facilities, targets, etc are easier to find for the 22LR, all make this a future possibility in some cases.

Training could easily be set up to allow rimfires for close work, low light drills, etc and centerfires for a couple of hundred rounds at longer distances.

Once trainers figure out that more people can afford to take their classes if shooting rimfire, they'll jump on board. As to anyone that wants to laugh at a rimfire student, screw em. ;)
 
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I would only use the 22 for CQB training scenarios as above poster suggested. Mostly shooting at the movers and only close-in stuff. Just a thought to save some $$$ since I take a course every 2 weeks or so and its all starting to add up! But I doubt the instructors would go for it though.

The school is ITTS in Los Angeles. ITTS Firearms School. Southern California's Elite Tactical Training Facility. International Tactical Training Seminars.
The Lead instructor is a LAPD veteran and former swat operator and trainer. The other main guy is a recently retired SEAL. So combines both police and military experience. About half or more of the class attendees are military or police. Plus also had guys from Aimpoint and Surefire taking classes as well. There are offsite classes as well in TX, NH, PA, MN as I scan the course schedule and decide whats next for me...

See some pics here:
International Tactical (ITTS) Tactical Carbine AAR (PICTURES) - Calguns.net
International Tactical (ITTS) Sniper II Feb. 6-7 AAR (PICTURES) - Calguns.net
International Tactical (ITTS) Sniper I March 6-7 AAR (PICTURES) - Calguns.net
 
Carbine/Pistol II (I didn't find Carbine II):
In two days you will learn to balance speed and accuracy, increased distance shooting out to 300 yards :eek: , shooting on the move, moving targets, transitioning from rifle to handgun, shooting from varied positions and under stress. Students will use the shoot house and force on force scenarios will be presented. (editorialized)
Click to expand...
Ya really think the M&P 15-22 will handle this course?

Ammo requirement is only 200 rounds so there's not much shooting, nor ammo expense. Even their Tactical Carbine I only requires 400 rounds of 5.56mm. Not high round courses.

I'd certainly take the 15-22 to work some of the drills with it, but not depend on it for the entire course. I've yet to lose an extractor in my service rifles for example!

-- Chuck
 
chuck s said:
Carbine/Pistol II (I didn't find Carbine II):Ya really think the M&P 15-22 will handle this course?

Ammo requirement is only 200 rounds so there's not much shooting, nor ammo expense. Even their Tactical Carbine I only requires 400 rounds of 5.56mm. Not high round courses.

I'd certainly take the 15-22 to work some of the drills with it, but not depend on it for the entire course. I've yet to lose an extractor in my service rifles for example!

-- Chuck
Click to expand...

This particular course doesn't sound like the place for the 15/22, but meaningful training based on the rimfire could be done. BTW, the other day I was reading about a course that required 1800 rounds. Ouch, that's expensive!
 
Long post alert. My 2 cents would be not to use the 15-22 in a tactical carbine-like course. NOTE: My comments are generic considering the many differing courses out there.

While the majority of the form, fit and function of the 15-22 are similar to an AR platform, the object of a basic course is to hone/refine or even learn the basics associated with your platform. The follow-on course (or 3rd day in some cases) is where you learn to fight with your rifle. If you used your AR for some courses of fire, and the 15-22 for others, you'd be intentionally introducing differences in your techniques that could really mess up your muscle memory and training. As one example, let's say you have an extended latch charging handle (like a BCM gunfighter) and you've transitioned your double-feed drill to using your left hand to rack the bolt to clear the jam. I'm certain the 15-22 would let you down in that drill just due to the design of the handle and it's durability. As such, you may have to mod your technique, which defeats the idea of taking the carbine course. Add in the stress introduced in a course, and you could then magnify any issue you may encounter.

What follows was part of a discussion on another forum and I tend to agree with some of the advice as applied to a rifle:

"Skills you can work on effectively with a .22 equivalent to your normal pistol:

* marksmanship
* strong- and weak-hand only shooting
* draw stroke
* reloads
* transitions
* judgmental shooting
* shooting on the move… With SOM, the line between good .22 training and bad .22 training is definitely easy to cross. But like transition drills, SOM training can benefit from a .22 in terms of learning how to move your feet and position your body for a stable shooting platform on the move.

Skills you should not practice with a .22lr handgun:

* recoil management
* sight tracking
* rapid multiple shots on a single target

I've tried to set up my 15-22 as close to my AR platform as possible so I can practice those skills, with the same kit, that re-enforce tactics, techniques and procedures I utilize. There are some TTPs that don't translate well so I don't focus on those in my training. BTW-I'm in NO way implying I'm high speed, I'd just like to be a less drag.:D I'm also trying new equipment and new TTPs to refine my skills.
 
Defender3 said:
I've tried to set up my 15-22 as close to my AR platform as possible so I can practice those skills, with the same kit, that re-enforce tactics, techniques and procedures I utilize. There are some TTPs that don't translate well so I don't focus on those in my training. BTW-I'm in NO way implying I'm high speed, I'd just like to be a less drag.:D I'm also trying new equipment and new TTPs to refine my skills.
Click to expand...

I agree with your post. A .22 can be very beneficial for training, but you have to understand it's limitations. Having your rimfire gun set up as close as possible to the full size gun is key. Efficiency (economy of motion) is what everyone should be focusing on when training. With efficiency comes speed.

If you do use a rimfire (whether pistol or rifle) for training, the drills run with the rimfire should immediately be followed up by live-fire runs with the full size weapon. The whole idea of practicing with a .22 is to cut down on costs, not eliminate costs. It allows you to turn "some" fine motor skills into gross motor skills without throwing a bunch of $$$ down range. The rimfire helps reduce costs, but does not eliminate the need to train with the real thing. Think of it as a supplemental tool not a replacement. It's a tool that lets you concentrate on the fundamentals, grip, stance, trigger control, sight alignment without the cost. I would add, it is very beneficial in learning transitions between multiple targets. But again, to get the most out of it, you need to train with both firearms.
 
this is the reason i own a 15-22 i run it through the course a few times then switch to my ar. and never look back the only thing anyone ever says is where do i get 1
 
I sent Tactical Response an email asking them if it was OK if I used my 15-22 for their Fighting Rifle Mobile Class. I got a reply saying quote "That will be fine"
 
My .02 cent, Take it, but leave it in the vehicle or room. Depending if you are training military or Police Tactical, use the tool you are planning to carry, not a training aid. Since all is inclusive of the outcome, take no substiute. The M&P 15/22 is great for your own pers. training, but not if it is for the above.. Although it does have the same functions as the AR15, it shoots with less recoil, may function with more jams, or not. You also will learn about your AR15 and what it is capabile of doing or NOT DOING, also the optics you plan to use, is the M&P 15/22 the exact same as your AR15? So train with what you use, use what you train... Enjoy..
 
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I think your idea is not bad but I'm wondering if you won't get made fun of? And While I know it's supposedly grown men, sometimes they're the worst, you know once a bully always.

If you asked and they said yes, then you're all good I would imagine. It is actually not a bad idea, maybe someone (Like me wooohooo!) would come up with a program that is a carbine course (Maybe a CQB to start) that is for tactical .22's / AR style 22s etc.... you could see the 15-22 vs the Sig 522 in action, with the GSG 5 and GSG 522 settle their beef, maybe an HK sprinkled in, etc.

Great idea!
 
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