Wow...got an education in PVC pipe

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msinc

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Or maybe I should write "need an education in PVC pipe"...gluing it together so it don't leak that is!!! I have done a lot of my own plumbing for most of my 51 years. Had some soldered copper water lines leak a few times but never had {never thought I had!!!} PVC drain lines leak. At least not until I had to test them for a building inspection. I am building a cabin up in the mountains and for rough in they require all drain and vent lines to be tested by plugging the main drain just before it dumps into the septic tank and then filling all drains with water. It has to be filled to a point above the top plate where the trusses sit.
I cleaned and glued all the joints the same as I have been doing it all my life and was very confident nothing would leak. Boy did I get a surprise!!!! I had to redo several of the joints to get it to pass. We're not talking gross leak here but they dripped for sure.
I have also in the past used Sch. 40 1 inch line for compressed air with zero leaks. I use ABS now for code, but I have concluded two things...small line is less prone to a leak and there must be a lot of leaking bigger stuff out there that wouldn't pass this type inspection. Especially around where I live, because it is not a requirement to test it here.
Don't get me wrong, testing has made a believer out of me for sure. If there are some experienced guys out there that have to pass this type test and do PVC pipe perhaps you could tell me what am I doing wrong. I use the cleaner and rub on it until it looks clean...there doesn't seem like too much to slopping on some glue all the way around both pipes, sliding them together and giving a little twist then holding it till it stops trying to push back. I am missing something, or it would not have leaked...any info is greatly appreciated. I hate it that I thought I knew what I was doing for all this time, but will at least admit I don't!!
 
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I do a less formal test of mine. I put it all together laying on cross boards and pressurize it for 24 hours and check visually for any leaks. If I don't find any I lower it into the trench and bury it. If I have any leaks I certainly cannot tell.
 
msinc said:
Or maybe I should write "need an education in PVC pipe"...gluing it together so it don't leak that is!!! I have done a lot of my own plumbing for most of my 51 years. Had some soldered copper water lines leak a few times but never had {never thought I had!!!} PVC drain lines leak. At least not until I had to test them for a building inspection. I am building a cabin up in the mountains and for rough in they require all drain and vent lines to be tested by plugging the main drain just before it dumps into the septic tank and then filling all drains with water. It has to be filled to a point above the top plate where the trusses sit.
I cleaned and glued all the joints the same as I have been doing it all my life and was very confident nothing would leak. Boy did I get a surprise!!!! I had to redo several of the joints to get it to pass. We're not talking gross leak here but they dripped for sure.
I have also in the past used Sch. 40 1 inch line for compressed air with zero leaks. I use ABS now for code, but I have concluded two things...small line is less prone to a leak and there must be a lot of leaking bigger stuff out there that wouldn't pass this type inspection. Especially around where I live, because it is not a requirement to test it here.
Don't get me wrong, testing has made a believer out of me for sure. If there are some experienced guys out there that have to pass this type test and do PVC pipe perhaps you could tell me what am I doing wrong. I use the cleaner and rub on it until it looks clean...there doesn't seem like too much to slopping on some glue all the way around both pipes, sliding them together and giving a little twist then holding it till it stops trying to push back. I am missing something, or it would not have leaked...any info is greatly appreciated. I hate it that I thought I knew what I was doing for all this time, but will at least admit I don't!!
Click to expand...

Okay, here is the skinny:
For PVC, use the purple primer. You clean the pipe, then primer the pipe end, and the inside of the fitting. For pipes over 1" in diameter, I will use heavy grit emery cloth on both sides of the fitting. I simply won't glue up a 1.5" pressure line without roughing up the pipe, and the fitting.
You wait 2-10 minutes. Glue both ends, male and female. Insert promptly, and use a twisting motion when doing the insertion. Once set in place, leave it alone and do not run water in it for a minimum of 1hr for all pipes up to 1.25". For 1.5-3", wait 3 hrs. For 4" pipe and bigger, come back tomorrow.
Now, when you turn on the water, do so SLOOOWLY. And, let the line vent in as many places as is practical to get the air out. With PVC, your biggest enemy is water hammering. When you let fly with 60-90PSI of water, the first 90 it reaches is going to blow out, EVERY TIME.:cool: When we run AG lines, mains are 2-4". We use a strap on the couplers sometimes, and we usually bury the 90's in concrete to keep them from blowing and wiping out an entire crop row in 5 minutes flat. The strap consists of a very heavy duty hose clamp on each side of the coupler on the pipe, with a steel cable from hose clamp to hose clamp. (When water hits a 90 at say 40mph in a pipe, after running straight for ???40 feet or more, it can rip a coupler loose 60 feet in BACK of the 90. Just jerks that stuff loose!:eek: What a wet mess.......)

Now, for ABS: For everything up to 4", you are good to go with simply cleaning, then gluing both sides, and inserting slowly with a twisting motion. Get it set in place, and leave it alone. Do not run water for 1hr on 1.5-3" pipe. For 4-6", leave it dry for 4 hrs. For 8" (The biggest I have personally worked with) We left it 'till the next day, but it should have been good to go in 4hrs. ABS is not meant to hold any real pressure, but rather flow; ie drains.

If I was to guess as to the reason for your small leaks, it would be the pipe was flexed or stressed in a couple fittings, so the coupling was not true flat/ relatively straight make to female angles. ABS does not like much angle, and since it's drain..... you usually have an angle mandatory. This can cause headaches. All I can say is, be liberal with the glue. Also, ABS has a much shorter connection than PVC, due to the intent of not using pressure.

That should about cover it.:)
 
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They make glue for each type of pipe, and several types that are supposed to work on any of them.
I use the type of glue specific to the pipe type I am using.
The cleaner is good, but I also sand everything that I am gluing together.
Hope this helps.

The above poster posted while I was typing. Very good information there.
 
I tightened up some tube fittings...

We used a lot of swage/ferrule tube fittings at work so I DO know how to put the stuff together, but when I put some under my sink I felt really confident and turned on the water, which immediately shot in my face like a garden hose. I expected maybe a drip that would stop with a tightening but I don't understand how I could have gotten THAT far off with the install. I was madder than a (VERY) wet hen.:mad::mad::mad:
 
cussedemgun said:
Seems you now have the basic knowledge to pass your journeyman test, - except

Friday is pay day

Don't bite your finger nails

I think there is one more rule, but I can't remember now
Click to expand...

"##IT" runs downhill.;)

If you are ever running a long run of PVC for water delivery, or if you are running uphill to the house, then I will suggest you put a union on the line about 1ft to 2ft after the meter. Then, install a check valve after that union. And, finally, after that check valve, add another union. Sounds like a lot of fittings, but it is VERY helpful: Union #1 breaks you off the meter, should there be an issue with the meter, or the city supply- Or, from your well supply. The check valve will keep the water from rolling back into the hole with you. This means a lot to a guy who does not enjoy bailing or pumping water for hours. Lastly, if there is an issue, and you need to dump all that water, the forward union breaks you loose above the check valve, and you can service/ replace the check valve, etc. When we have an AG line, or a far residential run, in front of that second union, we install a FOURTH fitting: A Tee, with the branch being a 3/4" fitting, with a hose adapter. We can run the water away from the work by doing this. It cuts the mess by as much as 100's of gallons, and yards of mud.:)
 
It happens to professionals also, my daughter's house in Philia was replumbed and a 4" line in the basement was dripping on the floor.

I usually just use the purple primer/cleaner then apply glue to both the fitting and the pipe. Insert with a quarter turn if possible.
 
All I remember is:
ABS is Glued (using adhesive that holds the pieces together)
PVC is Chemically Welded (using solvents which melt the PVC together)
You can neither glue nor weld ABS to PVC (and meet code)


^^^ Nightmare following upstairs bathroom re-model....
 
cussedemgun said:
Seems you now have the basic knowledge to pass your journeyman test, - except

Friday is pay day

Don't bite your finger nails

I think there is one more rule, but I can't remember now
Click to expand...

Hot on the left.
 
What happened to my witty double entendre post????? :confused: ???????
I thought it was pretty good! :D
At least 4011 got in a quick "like" before it got sent to wherever these things get sent.
 
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Thank you gentlemen for all the priceless advice...one thing I have learned in life is that you can sure spend a lot of time around folks that do what they do for a living and never get to learn anything. So I greatly appreciate the knowledge. It sounds like I need to incorporate sanding the pipe and fittings into my plumbing routine from now on. I have more to do this weekend on another project so I will let everyone know if I passed the test or not.
 
Rembember DEEP PURPLE. No not the band. When you use the purple primer make sure you use enough and cover the entire fitting and male end of the pipe. When you apply the glue coat the male end as far as you primed, ring the inside of the fitting with the glue brush and put together with a 3/4 twist if possible. *** BE SURE TO HOLD THE PIPE TOGETHER*** the chemical reaction creates heat and this heat will push the fitting off of the pipe HOLD for at least 30 seconds on a hot day longer on cold days. And watch the fitting when you let go if it slips any push it back together and hold it longer. Let all of the joints set up for at least an hour. Over night if you can.

I hope this helps good luck.
 
You did not mention how you cut it? A pipe cutting tool is best for nice clean straight cuts. No burrs. All the other posts got ya covered.

I put in my own underground sprinkler system. Clean cuts, cleaner, primer, solvent. Hold together the two pieces /couplings or they like to push apart.

We had out entire hose re plumed with CVPC. Two guys a day and 1/2. Water was on the first night. Included patching and texture coating all the drywall holes.

Never seen such good work. Guys were surgeons. They tested with compressed air which I had to sign off on before City Inspections.

Not one leak run, drip or error!
 
"You did not mention how you cut it? A pipe cutting tool is best for nice clean straight cuts. No burrs. All the other posts got ya covered."

Yep, I used to cut it with a Stanley short cut saw because it was quick and easy but ran into the need for one of those cutters because the pipe was so close to the wall on one of the ones I had to redo...one of those tools that after you use it you wonder how you got along without it!!

"I believe roughing up the joint, inner and outer surfaces, with some sort of sand paper is important.
Steve W"

Yep, I believe that for certain now...I didn't do it and had leaks. You can best believe the pipe I do this weekend will all be sanded.

I will say that also there are two different design types of PVC joints. One is the regular "drain" type and the other is the "pressure" type with much longer gluing surfaces. I have only used the pressure type fittings when I installed my swimming pool. Used them on all the filter and return lines. Not a leak one, but then they have twice the surface area for the glue to adhere/weld to. I didn't even know there was such thing until they came with the pool kit. I needed a few more and sure enough, Lowes had them. Funny the things you don't pay attention too!!! Thanks again fellas.
 
Last summer I did a job in 3" PVC schedule 80 that included a 300' straight run, about 12 unions, 15 Tees, around 20 ball valves and about 30 L's (45 and 90's combined). It ran hazardous waste through a filter system. Every glue joint was deburred, then sanded, primed, and glued. I had to cut out 4 or 5 fittings because the glue set up before the pipe was inserted all the way in the 90+ degree heat. When we pressurized the system not one glue joint leaked! The unions all needed re-tightened! 2 or 3 of the threaded fittings that were not my doing leaked and were re-done (never trust important joints you didn't do!) One trick was on metal threaded pipe that was old work, I always go to a metal coupler before going to new PVC! There were aluminum 3" street ells on the filter tanks the were "Certified" tight; not one was tight. Put a black pipe nipple in the aluminum fitting, then grab steel to tighten and remove the sacrificial nipple. Again don't trust somebody else's work. When the contamination was all cleaned up, I cut up all my hard work, put in a sealed container and sent it to a toxic dump. All the different sections of the clean up I worked on came in way under budget. And I had a wonderful time doing work I enjoy. Ivan
 
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