shil
Member
I recently latched on to a quantity of WW231. I am a bit baffled as to why Hodgdon dropped the maximum for 231 with a 158 lead bullet to 3.7 grains from 4.5 grains. That's quite a drop. Anyone know of why?
WW231 for .38 Special
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You might do a search. This has been discussed here previously. And , get a recent Lyman book. That data is safe, pressure tested and many have been using it for a long time.
There are many changeable factors in play here that account for variances; only one of these is the actual recording of the pressure for that particular load data.
There are many changeable factors in play here that account for variances; only one of these is the actual recording of the pressure for that particular load data.
Cdog
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The process used to measure pressure has improved dramatically.
Most likely there were spikes not detected by older equipment and methods previously used.
Most likely there were spikes not detected by older equipment and methods previously used.
4barrel
Member
Because Hodgdon's data is a compiled mess of swaged, standard and Cowboy action data that was likely put together by some office worker who is oblivious to anything gun related.Ignore it. 3.7 grs isn't even close to a maximum charge. Original Winchester data says 4.7 grs is only 17,100 psi.
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Understood. I'll re-evaluate. I had tried 4.5 grains in the past with no apparent ill effects but never did any extensive firing of it. I was using 231 for .45acp and decided to try the 231 in .38. I went back to Unique. I haven't loaded any .38 Special in over a year. No primers. Found some primers. No Unique. 231 available. Hence, my inquiry after reviewing data. Thanks, Everyone, for your responses.
4.5 has always been +P with 158-160 grain lead in .38 Special, hasn't it? I see so much variation in recommended maximums from different sources I have developed a "safe in my gun" attitude/mentality. My stuff works fine for me, in my firearms, but I'm sure somewhere out there is published data saying it is dangerous - particularly in the rifles that burn a lot of powder.
The best advice has always been "Start low and work up carefully."
231 is a great powder for .38 Special, IMO.
The best advice has always been "Start low and work up carefully."
231 is a great powder for .38 Special, IMO.
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Chubbs103
US Veteran
My Lyman 49th shows more than this for a standard load.
W231 has been reliably available for me lately, so I have been switching a few loads over. I have been very pleased with W231 in 9mm.
I have used it in .45ACP for decades. My standard mid-range load for 200gr LSWC from both the Lyman 49th as well as an old Winchester manual is now .1 grain over max according to Hodgdon. I have since scaled back to be within Hodgdon's data.
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Looking at my log, I was incorrect on a couple of points. My 200gr LSWC load has not changed. It is my mid-range 230gr FMJ load that is now over the Hodgdon max by 0.1gr. THAT is what I dialed back.
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
4.5 has always been +P with 158-160 grain lead in .38 Special, hasn't it? I see so much variation in recommended maximums from different sources I have developed a "safe in my gun" attitude/mentality. My stuff works fine for me, in my firearms, but I'm sure somewhere out there is published data saying it is dangerous - particularly in the rifles that burn a lot of powder.
The best advice has always been "Start low and work up carefully."
I doubt 4.5gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet is a +P load. I have data from an older Winchester yearly load data manual that says so from before Hodgdon got the Winchester powder rights.
I have been loading 4.0gr W231 under that 158gr bullet for MANY years as my light target load. (one of my goto loads)
gwpercle
Member
What alwslate said ... let me add , get a Lyman Manual , like the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition (cast bullets only)or the 50th Anniversary Reloading Manual (some jacketed and some cast) and look at the actual pressures each load develops ...
The pressures will be a excellent guide to base your loads on .
Hodgdons reloading center is a mess ... I don't know what happened but getting info is like pulling a bear's teeth ...
I've stopped using it .
Gary
Green Frog
Member
I've found 231 and mid size handgun bullets go together like ham and eggs. It's worth checking around and working up your loads cautiously with this or any powder, but I have found it to be excellent for range loads for 32 S&W L as well as H&R, 9mm, and 38 Spl (esp HBWC). If you've got a reliable supply of 231, you're in good shape!
Froggie
Froggie
boatbum101
Member
IMHO the only powder that's more flexible for handguns is Unique . One would be hard pressed to find a cartridge that either won't work in . 4.5grs W231 is like 5.0grs Unique it's pretty close to max for std pressure load , but it aint +P .
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I have participated in numerous threads about the .38 Spl. and W231 seems to always be popular. It's amazing how many people have settled on 4.0 gr of W231 with a 158gr SWC. This is a load I've been shooting for decades. Many tens of thousands of rounds since the 80's and still going. Accuracy in multiple guns is superb, brass lasts a long, long, time. "They" can call it what they want.
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I've also used the 4 grs. 231 with a 160 grain cast SWC. Good, safe load in many revolvers and generally quite accurate; comparable to the 158 grain cast or swaged factory load. If you don't have 231, 3.5 grs. Bullseye will provide about the same velocity and I find it just slightly more accurate than the 231 load, but you can't really go wrong with either one.
I have a old Hodgdon manual 23 back in 1979 that call out a maximum load
of w231 at 3.7 grs with a 158 lead bullet in a 38 case, at 819fps, 14,900 cup.
I also have a newer Lyman with a w231 +P loading at 956fps and 18,500 cup.
Pick your load.
of w231 at 3.7 grs with a 158 lead bullet in a 38 case, at 819fps, 14,900 cup.
I also have a newer Lyman with a w231 +P loading at 956fps and 18,500 cup.
Pick your load.
Hodgdon has it's own test facility and does testing for a number of brands that they own or licensed to distribute, W231 being one of those.
I wouldn't bet that it's the same powder that the "original Winchester" data was based on. The production facility was moved to St Marks FL. around 1970. I would suspect that anything published before that is out of date. Not just because the production facility was moved either. Pressure testing is changing with newer tech also.
I would give Hodgdon a call if there is some question about a published load.
oddshooter
Member
I've used 3.8 of 231; with a 158gr using LOX from a gentleman named Bill Benny. That bullet is the most accurate I have ever found. It has 5 small rings without any lube grooves. I was consistently getting .5" at 25 yards benchrested. Velocity is only 750fps, but the accuracy is astounding.
But TrailBoss and BullsEye did just as well with that bullet; under 1/2".
Prescut
But TrailBoss and BullsEye did just as well with that bullet; under 1/2".
Prescut
am confused, as just got off Hodgen's online manual and the 38 special hp-38 plus p load for 158 hdy xtp gn bullets is still 4.6 gns at 18,100 cup?
the max standard 38 special 158 cast lead load is 3.7 gns at 14,600 cup
have also been using right about 4.2 gns under 158 lead for long time
the max standard 38 special 158 cast lead load is 3.7 gns at 14,600 cup
have also been using right about 4.2 gns under 158 lead for long time
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