Jäger1
Member
The only proof mark I have noticed so far:
Last edited:
WWI Triple Lock/Hand Ejector .455 Webley "US Military Surplus"?
- Thread starter Jäger1
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Rpg
Member
Sounds like you're caught in a Canadian legal technicality that may determine whether you can retain the revolver.
I'm not confident that our opinions will carry much weight.
I'm not confident that our opinions will carry much weight.
"...But... ATF says: We have come to the determination that the Smith & Wesson model Hand Ejector in .455 Webley is a Surplus Military firearm that is Curio or Relic status of US Origin...."
In the USA, firearms (rifles, handguns, shotguns) fall under 3 general classes.
Antique..Mfg before 1/1/1899.
Everything made after that point in time are under the the rules of the Gun Control At '68 as far as transfer, sale, etc.
The law has set aside any of these post 1899 firearms, no matter who mfg them , no matter wher made,,to be classified as Curio & Relics
The indv fire arm must either be 50y/o (mfgr date) from todays date.
Or a more current firearm or even an entire mfg model can be classified as C&R by the ATF due to it's collector value, interest, rarity, etc.
The first issue (50yrs old or older) is the Relic portion
The value as a collectible, rarity, etc is the Curio.
When any firearm has C&R status, it still has to transfer with all the same Fed rules, paperwork as a socalled 'moden' firearm (non c&r).
However, the GCA68 allowed for a Collectors FFL ( 03FFL) to be created along with it.
This allows holders of the 03ffl to easily buy these C&R status firearms betw 03 an 01(dealer) ffl's.
No 4473 nor NICS check need be done betw the ffls. The 03 can also receive a shipment of a c&r firearm directly. No need to go through a dealer transfer.
C&R means nothing as far as Military use in the past. Where it was shipped to or who used it, when.
There are regs specifying how 'original' to what left the factory the example must to still qualify as C&R. But that's usually a many page back and forth discussion of sorts.
C&R is simply a status carve-out that allows a somewhat simpler operation for collectors to feed their hobby.
The 03 license cannot be used to 'Deal in Firearms'.
If you as a non FFl holder buy what happens to be a C&R status firearm like this S&W,,the purchasing and transfer procedure from the dealer is absolutely no different than if it was a Glock made last week.
FWIW,,the proof marks on the revolver are from the London Proof House.
They are commercial proof .,,,not military proof marks.
Brit law has always demanded that any firearm meet Govt proofing spec before being sold commercially in Britland.
That includes firearms imported from other countrys.
Since Engl did not and still does not recognize any US gun mfgr proof, they all have to go thru proof at either London or Birmingham Proof hs.
Once proofed and marked, they can be sold on the commercial market.
Likely what you have..acommercial S&W, imported into England, sent in for required proofing,,then sold commercially.
Sold to who,,when. ???
If the gun was sent to the Brit military it would have been 'Military Proof & Inspected'
Those markings and proofing were done at one of the Govt arsenals like Enfield Lock.
Military firing proof is the common 'Crossed Pennants' stamp. Then the inspector mark underneath. Enfield would be a Crown / E and an inspectors ID letter or # under that.
Other military markings usually decorate their hardware as well..
l
In the USA, firearms (rifles, handguns, shotguns) fall under 3 general classes.
Antique..Mfg before 1/1/1899.
Everything made after that point in time are under the the rules of the Gun Control At '68 as far as transfer, sale, etc.
The law has set aside any of these post 1899 firearms, no matter who mfg them , no matter wher made,,to be classified as Curio & Relics
The indv fire arm must either be 50y/o (mfgr date) from todays date.
Or a more current firearm or even an entire mfg model can be classified as C&R by the ATF due to it's collector value, interest, rarity, etc.
The first issue (50yrs old or older) is the Relic portion
The value as a collectible, rarity, etc is the Curio.
When any firearm has C&R status, it still has to transfer with all the same Fed rules, paperwork as a socalled 'moden' firearm (non c&r).
However, the GCA68 allowed for a Collectors FFL ( 03FFL) to be created along with it.
This allows holders of the 03ffl to easily buy these C&R status firearms betw 03 an 01(dealer) ffl's.
No 4473 nor NICS check need be done betw the ffls. The 03 can also receive a shipment of a c&r firearm directly. No need to go through a dealer transfer.
C&R means nothing as far as Military use in the past. Where it was shipped to or who used it, when.
There are regs specifying how 'original' to what left the factory the example must to still qualify as C&R. But that's usually a many page back and forth discussion of sorts.
C&R is simply a status carve-out that allows a somewhat simpler operation for collectors to feed their hobby.
The 03 license cannot be used to 'Deal in Firearms'.
If you as a non FFl holder buy what happens to be a C&R status firearm like this S&W,,the purchasing and transfer procedure from the dealer is absolutely no different than if it was a Glock made last week.
FWIW,,the proof marks on the revolver are from the London Proof House.
They are commercial proof .,,,not military proof marks.
Brit law has always demanded that any firearm meet Govt proofing spec before being sold commercially in Britland.
That includes firearms imported from other countrys.
Since Engl did not and still does not recognize any US gun mfgr proof, they all have to go thru proof at either London or Birmingham Proof hs.
Once proofed and marked, they can be sold on the commercial market.
Likely what you have..acommercial S&W, imported into England, sent in for required proofing,,then sold commercially.
Sold to who,,when. ???
If the gun was sent to the Brit military it would have been 'Military Proof & Inspected'
Those markings and proofing were done at one of the Govt arsenals like Enfield Lock.
Military firing proof is the common 'Crossed Pennants' stamp. Then the inspector mark underneath. Enfield would be a Crown / E and an inspectors ID letter or # under that.
Other military markings usually decorate their hardware as well..
l
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,352
A comment and a question 
.
From your post:
"ATF says: We have come to the determination that the Smith & Wesson model Hand Ejector in .455 Webley is a Surplus Military firearm that is Curio or Relic status of US Origin."
You added "US" to "Surplus Military Firearm". It was made in the US but not issued to the US military. Remington made Moisin-Nagant and Savage made Lee-Enfield rifles for foreign countries and these would fall into the same category.
Why did you ask ATF about its status? Unless it was stolen (and not from the Brits) it is perfectly legal to own in the US. Especially in Montana, where firearms ownership is mandatory.
.From your post:
"ATF says: We have come to the determination that the Smith & Wesson model Hand Ejector in .455 Webley is a Surplus Military firearm that is Curio or Relic status of US Origin."
You added "US" to "Surplus Military Firearm". It was made in the US but not issued to the US military. Remington made Moisin-Nagant and Savage made Lee-Enfield rifles for foreign countries and these would fall into the same category.
Why did you ask ATF about its status? Unless it was stolen (and not from the Brits) it is perfectly legal to own in the US. Especially in Montana, where firearms ownership is mandatory.
"ATF has recognized only complete, assembled firearms as curios or relics. ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics are not generally recognized as curios or relics."
This was written to prevent sporting rifles newly made/converted from military rifle actions from gaining C&R status. However, it can possibly be interpreted as denying C&R status to .455 HEs converted to .45ACP or LC and Parker Hale or Cogswell & Harrison .38 BSR modifications.
Bob
This was written to prevent sporting rifles newly made/converted from military rifle actions from gaining C&R status. However, it can possibly be interpreted as denying C&R status to .455 HEs converted to .45ACP or LC and Parker Hale or Cogswell & Harrison .38 BSR modifications.
Bob
shipped August 1915 to Remington for export to Great Britain.
Additional trivia tangential to the question:
The US bought 20,000 Canadian Ross Mk II rifles and bayonets -- and marked them US -- for training in WWI.
I used to have one that is now in the collection of another member.
I recall some of the US made Mosin-Nagant rifles were used by US expeditionary forces in Russia, but my memory may be too vague on that.
The US bought 20,000 Canadian Ross Mk II rifles and bayonets -- and marked them US -- for training in WWI.
I used to have one that is now in the collection of another member.
I recall some of the US made Mosin-Nagant rifles were used by US expeditionary forces in Russia, but my memory may be too vague on that.
I don't understand the problem. It is old enough to be a curio and relic no mater who originally bought it and no mater who owned it. Maybe it was never actually owned by any of the worlds military, or even a member of any military.
I do not see where the ATF declared it a surplus US weapon, just a surplus military weapon of US origin (as in made here). They do not state it was a US military weapon.
I own a 1917 commercial. 1917s were designed for the military to fire military ammunition. Therefor you could say it is a military weapon. It was sold on the commercial market because S&W had a surplus of them. IE a surplus military weapon. Heck a old 38 Military and Police has Military right in its name. Lots of military guns never made it to the military.
I have a 455 TL and a 2nd model. Mine both got the snot stamped out of them. I wouldn't mind having fewer. LOL
Hondo has a whole thread on 455s, Some never got caliber markings some did, some went here and there. Many did not go to straight Britain, but were purchase by a British agent. Who knows just how they were distributed.
The only reason the I can see worrying about what the ATF thinks is selling to someone in a state like CA. Any non NFA gun 50 years old in its original configuration is a curio and relic. Even a 44 magnum that was sold and owned solely by a civilian over 50 years old qualifies for that with the ATF.
I do not see where the ATF declared it a surplus US weapon, just a surplus military weapon of US origin (as in made here). They do not state it was a US military weapon.
I own a 1917 commercial. 1917s were designed for the military to fire military ammunition. Therefor you could say it is a military weapon. It was sold on the commercial market because S&W had a surplus of them. IE a surplus military weapon. Heck a old 38 Military and Police has Military right in its name. Lots of military guns never made it to the military.
I have a 455 TL and a 2nd model. Mine both got the snot stamped out of them. I wouldn't mind having fewer. LOL
Hondo has a whole thread on 455s, Some never got caliber markings some did, some went here and there. Many did not go to straight Britain, but were purchase by a British agent. Who knows just how they were distributed.
The only reason the I can see worrying about what the ATF thinks is selling to someone in a state like CA. Any non NFA gun 50 years old in its original configuration is a curio and relic. Even a 44 magnum that was sold and owned solely by a civilian over 50 years old qualifies for that with the ATF.
Last edited:
kwill1911
Member
This was your mistake. The ATF said no such thing, as others have pointed out. As to whether or not it was a surplus British military revolver I think you are correct that it was a private purchase and not military in that sense. I also doubt the ATF knows the difference between military acceptance/view/proof marks and commercial ones. So, to quote our favorite politician, "at this point, what difference does it make?!"
kwill1911
Member
It was not clear (to me, at least) that you were trying to import the gun. I've been through that process (twice) and it is difficult. Also, your arguments at the bottom of your first post indicate that you see the decision as flawed because it isn't a U.S. issued revolver. I don't think that matters. Nor does it matter that is was privately purchased by a British officer. The ATF sees it as a martial arm that originated in the U.S. That is reason enough to them since they are hostile to gun owners and the repatriation of martial arms. Good luck with the State Department. You might want to try to get your representative or Senator to come to your assistance.
Model19man
Member
Attachments
kwill1911
Member
That's three: a London proof mark and two London view marks.
You've gotten answers from several very knowledgeable collectors here, and yet you still believe your interpretation is correct. I suggest that you call the ATF, speak with a supervisor, and argue the issue with them.
If you are trying to import the rev into the USA, unless there has been a change in rules, it should not be a problem.
Military surplus incl hanguns are importable.
The military handguns must still meet the GCA68 'point score' minimum wether a rev or semi auto.,,and I believe be C&R status either by their age or ATF Curio granted due to rarity, oddity, etc.
The wording that the ATF letter provided seems to me to simply give you the what correct 'ATF classification' for the firearm is (in their opinion), Maybe it's to be used on the import form?.
They are not saying it's some type or class of firearm that you can't import or even own. They are mearly stating where it falls in their purview in the very broad definition of a firearm under GCA68.
We might not agree with their assessment, but theirs doesn't seem to disqualify the rev from import or transfer/possession if already in the US,,which I'm thinking is the whole question here.
back to coffee ...
Just my early am look at it again.
Military surplus incl hanguns are importable.
The military handguns must still meet the GCA68 'point score' minimum wether a rev or semi auto.,,and I believe be C&R status either by their age or ATF Curio granted due to rarity, oddity, etc.
The wording that the ATF letter provided seems to me to simply give you the what correct 'ATF classification' for the firearm is (in their opinion), Maybe it's to be used on the import form?.
They are not saying it's some type or class of firearm that you can't import or even own. They are mearly stating where it falls in their purview in the very broad definition of a firearm under GCA68.
We might not agree with their assessment, but theirs doesn't seem to disqualify the rev from import or transfer/possession if already in the US,,which I'm thinking is the whole question here.
back to coffee ...
Just my early am look at it again.
Last edited:
kwill1911
Member
See this document:https://www.atf.gov/file/61806/download
It is a problem to import surplus military firearms of U.S. origin. Here is the section of the import application form.
It is a problem to import surplus military firearms of U.S. origin. Here is the section of the import application form.
Last edited:
I agree that using that form, (a.) should BE CHECKED. The US military NEVER had any 455 revolvers, the first model triple locks were produced in 44 special, then 455, prior to the 1917 45acp so, they did not need any US military assistance.
The cylinders, barrels, cranes nor frames would work using 1917 parts unless modified. The barrel was close in its bore, but with the TL shroud they would not function correctly on a 1917. The recoil shield has no dip in it for center pin and a the frame is cut for the 3rd lock.
The letter does not state it was for US military us. It simply states the gun was of US ORIGIN. It does NOT state that it is of US military origin.
The cylinders, barrels, cranes nor frames would work using 1917 parts unless modified. The barrel was close in its bore, but with the TL shroud they would not function correctly on a 1917. The recoil shield has no dip in it for center pin and a the frame is cut for the 3rd lock.
The letter does not state it was for US military us. It simply states the gun was of US ORIGIN. It does NOT state that it is of US military origin.
Last edited:
kwill1911
Member
I agree. I think the best course of action would be to use an importer/dealer that does this on a regular basis. They will have a relationship with the ATF that can be useful. Also, getting a letter from the SWHF that shows it shipped to a commercial destination would be helpful.
A surplus mil firearm incl handgun can be imported.
The importation must be done by an 08 or 11 FFL with all the necessary ATf paperwork.
Rifles and Shotguns of Military surplus must be C&R status.
Handguns must be C&R status AND be classed as 'Sporting Firearms'. This latter classification means they must make the ATF Handgun Import Point System for importation.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/factoring-criteria-weapons-atf-form-4590/download
Maybe that's where the old gal fails, In the Point System is the dreaded 'Drop Test'.
It must pass that Drop Test and with the old style hammer block.
I don't know where that stands in the ATF's eyes of concern.
Just remembering the load of Webley MkIV 38's that they allowed in (1990's) but not before a separate crude retro fitted hammer block was installed by the importer.
The letter that the OP received..
"...ATF says: We have come to the determination that the Smith & Wesson model Hand Ejector in .455 Webley is a Surplus Military firearm that is Curio or Relic status of US Origin..."
That is all the letter is saying. A simple statement of what the revolver is.
It's not a Modern Status (post C&R).
But they have come to the conclusion that it is a Military Surplused firearm.
Many I feel would beg to differ. Knowing the history of mfg, with looking at the commercial proofs and lack there of of any Military proof or acceptance markings.
Here's the swipe from the ATF import regs. (kwill1911's document post)
In there it plainly states that Military Surplus handguns are importable IF they meet the C&R status AND the ATF Handgun Import Criteria point system.
".....A surplus military firearm is any firearm which has ever been possessed by a regular or
irregular military force. Surplus military firearms are prohibited from importation under 18
U.S.C. § 925(d)(3); however, § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11)
to import surplus military rifles and shotguns classified as curios or relics; and handguns
classified as curios or relics which meet the sporting criteria. In order to qualify for
importation the firearms must be in their original military configuration and cannot have
been sporterized. Further, under the AECA, the importation of U.S.-origin surplus military
firearms is generally prohibited without retransfer authorization from the Department of
State. 27 CFR § 447.57. ....."
Not quick & easy to do, but doable.
There are FFL's that handle this stuff as a specialty. It's expensive and takes time. You must use one of the FFL's to do the importation. Once the gun is here, then they do the OTC transfer to you.
'Sporting Firearms' are handled a bit differently and are somewhat easier to import.
The importation must be done by an 08 or 11 FFL with all the necessary ATf paperwork.
Rifles and Shotguns of Military surplus must be C&R status.
Handguns must be C&R status AND be classed as 'Sporting Firearms'. This latter classification means they must make the ATF Handgun Import Point System for importation.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/factoring-criteria-weapons-atf-form-4590/download
Maybe that's where the old gal fails, In the Point System is the dreaded 'Drop Test'.
It must pass that Drop Test and with the old style hammer block.
I don't know where that stands in the ATF's eyes of concern.
Just remembering the load of Webley MkIV 38's that they allowed in (1990's) but not before a separate crude retro fitted hammer block was installed by the importer.
The letter that the OP received..
"...ATF says: We have come to the determination that the Smith & Wesson model Hand Ejector in .455 Webley is a Surplus Military firearm that is Curio or Relic status of US Origin..."
That is all the letter is saying. A simple statement of what the revolver is.
It's not a Modern Status (post C&R).
But they have come to the conclusion that it is a Military Surplused firearm.
Many I feel would beg to differ. Knowing the history of mfg, with looking at the commercial proofs and lack there of of any Military proof or acceptance markings.
Here's the swipe from the ATF import regs. (kwill1911's document post)
In there it plainly states that Military Surplus handguns are importable IF they meet the C&R status AND the ATF Handgun Import Criteria point system.
".....A surplus military firearm is any firearm which has ever been possessed by a regular or
irregular military force. Surplus military firearms are prohibited from importation under 18
U.S.C. § 925(d)(3); however, § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11)
to import surplus military rifles and shotguns classified as curios or relics; and handguns
classified as curios or relics which meet the sporting criteria. In order to qualify for
importation the firearms must be in their original military configuration and cannot have
been sporterized. Further, under the AECA, the importation of U.S.-origin surplus military
firearms is generally prohibited without retransfer authorization from the Department of
State. 27 CFR § 447.57. ....."
Not quick & easy to do, but doable.
There are FFL's that handle this stuff as a specialty. It's expensive and takes time. You must use one of the FFL's to do the importation. Once the gun is here, then they do the OTC transfer to you.
'Sporting Firearms' are handled a bit differently and are somewhat easier to import.
Last edited:
