5-Shot
Member
I am amazed at this document! I've owned and shot S&W revolvers for over 50 and have NEVER shot one that performed that poorly. I can't believe I've just been lucky. Anyone else shocked at those numbers?
Ed
Your J Frame is more accurate than you are
- Thread starter East River Guide
- Start date
I am amazed at this document! I've owned and shot S&W revolvers for over 50 and have NEVER shot one that performed that poorly. I can't believe I've just been lucky. Anyone else shocked at those numbers?
Ed
Boogsawaste
Member
I'm also in the "happy to get them all on paper club". I shoot standing at 15 yards only, D/A with no staging, at a 12"x12" target. I've been getting most on that target now...And that makes me one happy camper! This is with my 642.I will also admit I'm also very green when it comes to fire arms.
riverrat38
US Veteran
I think that is just S&W's way of saying "don't complain about the accuracy of the gun".
That is roughly the accuracy that I can get with my sling shot.
Well, maybe 3 out of 5 shots.
I have been looking at ransom rest results of small semi auto's in the American Rifleman and they are that bad!
They actually had to shorten the distance quite a bit to keep groups within 6 inches.
I think I will keep my J frames.
Best,
Rick
bedbugbilly
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2010
- Messages
- 381
- Reaction score
- 154
I am no "Annie Oakley" and my handguns are way more accurate than I am. That being said . . . . I am always somewhat amused by reading posts on forums of "my gun isn't accurate" or "it doesn't shoot to POA so I traded it in", etc. For one thing, it all boils down to practice. In today's world, many of us use and own more than one handgun. Those who stick to shooting one or two individual handguns will usually be better shot with them as they have taken the time to "learn" their handgun - where it hits, what it likes best for ammo, etc. And let's face it - learning the correct hold and being consistent, learning the sight picture that works, etc. is very important. It's not a case of "can't", it's a case of "can" IF you take the time and patience to work at it. Yes, older eyes, weakening muscles with age, etc. all come in to play . . . but the important thing is to shoot the best you can and enjoy it.
Whenever I get a new pistol, I start out at close distances from the target and as I improve in shot placement, I then move back further. It doesn't come overnight. . . . and for me, my accuracy varies from one practice session to the next. I guess that's part of getting older. I no longer shoot in competition so the only one I have to compete with is myself.
When I got my first snubbie . . . I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it . . . but it improved because of practice and some advice on hold from a fellow at the range I was shooting at who was watching me. Itt's all a learning process . . . and telling yourself you "can".
Whenever I get a new pistol, I start out at close distances from the target and as I improve in shot placement, I then move back further. It doesn't come overnight. . . . and for me, my accuracy varies from one practice session to the next. I guess that's part of getting older. I no longer shoot in competition so the only one I have to compete with is myself.
When I got my first snubbie . . . I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it . . . but it improved because of practice and some advice on hold from a fellow at the range I was shooting at who was watching me. Itt's all a learning process . . . and telling yourself you "can".
J frames
I have carried a Smith 49 daily since 1973.....I was a LE F/A instructor for most of my career and when we were running qualifications, the instructors had an hour in between classes....most of us being "bullet heads" opted to shoot rather than eat.....back then (70's- early 80's) we shot a 60 rd course of fire out to 45 yds.....several of us could shoot the max score with our K frames, so we began "competing" with each other with our J frames....which most of us carried as "bugs".....we shot at 3, 7 ,15, 25, and 45 yds using 38 spl wadcutters....word soon got out abt our J frame "matches" and we started having guy's showing up on their lunch break or their days off to participate.
Could we shoot the J's at 25 and 45 yds as well as the K's, no....but we had several "master" ranked shooters who could post some very respectable scores with the 2" J frames ( out shoot a lot of lesser skilled K frame shooters).....a command of the basics, a refinement of those skill sets and a lot of rounds down range in a constructive manner will make it possible for a skilled shooter to shoot some very good groups with the J frame gun....and yes Kaas.....I know we still have a snubbie PPC match to shoot, I have not forgotten.
I have carried a Smith 49 daily since 1973.....I was a LE F/A instructor for most of my career and when we were running qualifications, the instructors had an hour in between classes....most of us being "bullet heads" opted to shoot rather than eat.....back then (70's- early 80's) we shot a 60 rd course of fire out to 45 yds.....several of us could shoot the max score with our K frames, so we began "competing" with each other with our J frames....which most of us carried as "bugs".....we shot at 3, 7 ,15, 25, and 45 yds using 38 spl wadcutters....word soon got out abt our J frame "matches" and we started having guy's showing up on their lunch break or their days off to participate.
Could we shoot the J's at 25 and 45 yds as well as the K's, no....but we had several "master" ranked shooters who could post some very respectable scores with the 2" J frames ( out shoot a lot of lesser skilled K frame shooters).....a command of the basics, a refinement of those skill sets and a lot of rounds down range in a constructive manner will make it possible for a skilled shooter to shoot some very good groups with the J frame gun....and yes Kaas.....I know we still have a snubbie PPC match to shoot, I have not forgotten.
Last edited:
DonD
Member
SgtLumpy
Member
5" at 7 yards? That kind of accuracy seems extremely achievable to me. I'd suggest that with just a small amount of practice, most people could do that without using sights at all.
The heat of the load should have absolutely nothing to do with accuracy, esp under those conditions. Five shots in six seconds means you have 1.2 seconds to put the gun on target with each shot. That's an eternity. Surely putting your sights on target (assuming you use sights at that distance) in ONE second is very, very doable.
Sgt Lumpy
riverrat38
US Veteran
I was thinking exactly the same thing, except its probably more like one second for each shot. Most of us would need the 6th second to draw from the leather.
And, I think there is a very large difference between "mouse fart" loads and "full house magnum" loads. The test needs to be done with usual carry loads. For me, with a J frame, that would be non plus P with an alloy frame and plus p or mid velocity magnum with a steel frame.
In my case, I use full power standard WC's with my 442 and BB hard cast WC's or Speer SB Gold Dots with my M60. The Speer SB comes in plus P and Magnum, depending on the dash number.
5 inches would be a very large tea cup. I think the reference should be to a saucer. Most such tests call for an 8 inch plate. This is typical of a good center of mass chest shot pattern. Five rounds inside such an area should get the job done. We don't want all our rounds going through the same hole!
Best,
Rick
Last edited:
hangnoose
Member
I'M WITH YOU COMRAD
As usual the gun seems much more accurate than the operator. my 640 almost every group will put 3 of 5 in a 1 hole cloverleaf the other 2 (my fault) 3-6" away at 10 yards. the only problem is that cloverleaf is no way in the x-ring, center mass yes, all of them, usually high. my fault I know. the gun I carry the most I shoot the least. too many brands in the fire right now. my old edc a sig 239 40 cal was MUCH more accurate, but harder to carry with 2 wrist/hand splints.
As usual the gun seems much more accurate than the operator. my 640 almost every group will put 3 of 5 in a 1 hole cloverleaf the other 2 (my fault) 3-6" away at 10 yards. the only problem is that cloverleaf is no way in the x-ring, center mass yes, all of them, usually high. my fault I know. the gun I carry the most I shoot the least. too many brands in the fire right now. my old edc a sig 239 40 cal was MUCH more accurate, but harder to carry with 2 wrist/hand splints.
Agree with Riverrat
I concur with Sgt Lumpy re the distance/time frame/target size and I agree with Rick on the differences between light/service/thermo nuclear loads.....gonna have more recovery time required if you are shooting a heavy recoiling punishing load from a J or K frame gun....that said our SOP at 3 yds was 2 rds in 3 seconds from the leather.....I used to demo at 7 yds with my K frame and rattle off 6 rds in 2 seconds ( 38 spl ball)....and if I was "locked down" on the gun I could pour them pretty much into one ragged "rathole"....regarding my previous post abt us shooting J frames on the PPC course.....most of the top shooters simply shot the "X" ring and 10 ring out of target out to 15 yds with their J frames.....groups opened up at 25 and then more so at 45 yds....but they were still grouped onto center of mass.....I am going to get some trigger time in a couple of days....gonna try your "test" with my trusty pact timer, 30 year old M-49 and sixty year old motor skills.
I concur with Sgt Lumpy re the distance/time frame/target size and I agree with Rick on the differences between light/service/thermo nuclear loads.....gonna have more recovery time required if you are shooting a heavy recoiling punishing load from a J or K frame gun....that said our SOP at 3 yds was 2 rds in 3 seconds from the leather.....I used to demo at 7 yds with my K frame and rattle off 6 rds in 2 seconds ( 38 spl ball)....and if I was "locked down" on the gun I could pour them pretty much into one ragged "rathole"....regarding my previous post abt us shooting J frames on the PPC course.....most of the top shooters simply shot the "X" ring and 10 ring out of target out to 15 yds with their J frames.....groups opened up at 25 and then more so at 45 yds....but they were still grouped onto center of mass.....I am going to get some trigger time in a couple of days....gonna try your "test" with my trusty pact timer, 30 year old M-49 and sixty year old motor skills.
Last edited:
DonD
Member
I'd bet a lot of people would have trouble doing that with my Ruger SP101 and full house Buffalo Bore that runs 1320fps with a 158gr JHP. Don
Or at least mine is more accurate than I am
Pretty much any handgun fits under that umbrella, more so with a J frame. PRACTICE!!!!
M3Stuart
Member
Yea, yea...we've all heard about the 1" groups at 25 yards with a 2" snub. I've never actually seen one, but I'm sure there are people who can do it.
Good luck with that.
My measurement is a 9" paper plate. I can show you tons of them fired at with snubs that have lots of neat little holes out to 50'. I can also show you lots of paper plates with neat little holes at 25 yards. But I can't show you lots of them shot with snubs at 25 yards.
In this picture, you'll see groupings at different ranges with different loads (reference is to grains of WIN231 and LRN vs LSWC bullets). The 'crosses' are 6" by 6" - each of those tiny squares is 1". This is shooting a 15-2 with a trigger job. Note that the 25 yard groups are about 4" while the 7 yard group is a little over an inch - maybe two. And THAT, my friends, is some pretty good shooting no matter WHAT anybody tells you.
Of course, if I posted this over on the reloading threads they'd ridicule me for putting anything less than a well-above-spec amount of propellant in these rounds...
The second pic shows shot placement with a 2.5" 66 at 7 and 15 yards. Each target circle is 7" so the groups are 4"-5" or less. Note also that there's no difference in accuracy between the ranges. These targets probably represent the functional limit of my vision and steadiness. Is that good enough? Well, IF I were a bad guy, I wouldn't want to engage ME defending myself with my S&Ws...so, HECK YEA, that's good enough!
Good luck with that.
My measurement is a 9" paper plate. I can show you tons of them fired at with snubs that have lots of neat little holes out to 50'. I can also show you lots of paper plates with neat little holes at 25 yards. But I can't show you lots of them shot with snubs at 25 yards.
In this picture, you'll see groupings at different ranges with different loads (reference is to grains of WIN231 and LRN vs LSWC bullets). The 'crosses' are 6" by 6" - each of those tiny squares is 1". This is shooting a 15-2 with a trigger job. Note that the 25 yard groups are about 4" while the 7 yard group is a little over an inch - maybe two. And THAT, my friends, is some pretty good shooting no matter WHAT anybody tells you.
Of course, if I posted this over on the reloading threads they'd ridicule me for putting anything less than a well-above-spec amount of propellant in these rounds...
The second pic shows shot placement with a 2.5" 66 at 7 and 15 yards. Each target circle is 7" so the groups are 4"-5" or less. Note also that there's no difference in accuracy between the ranges. These targets probably represent the functional limit of my vision and steadiness. Is that good enough? Well, IF I were a bad guy, I wouldn't want to engage ME defending myself with my S&Ws...so, HECK YEA, that's good enough!
Attachments
Last edited:
Similar threads
