RCBS Chargemaster vs A&D FX120i

71firebird400 said:

If you're happy with the Harrell's that is great; being content with the throws of a powder measure would certainly save a lot of time in the loading process. However the world of accurate rifle shooting has progressed beyond such antiquated technology, especially at the 600 and 1000 yard lines.

The fact remains- a Harrel's measure won't touch a trickler and magnetic restoration balance when it comes to precise charge weights.

Click to expand...

I agree with you there, but don't believe calling Harrell's Precision antiquated is fair, nor do I believe the RCBS Chargemaster bridges the gap from antiquated to precise.

I go with just the throw and do weight checks after a few throws when I am loading plinking rounds for my Mini-14--the Harrell's Precision certainly throws consistent enough charges for that since I am not loading to max charge. When I am working up a test load or checking a load for accuracy, I set my Harrell's to just under the desired charge weight, then trickle charge from a Redding #5 into a RCBS 10-10.

As for 600-1000 yards, yes that has to be very precise--which leads into more details than the charge being .00 off. Since cases get sorted by weight, trimmed to an exact length off, bullets are seated off the o-give, case necks are turned, and a desired amount of crimp is placed with correctly chosen bushing allowing for .001" springback.

novalty said:

I agree with you there, but don't believe calling Harrell's Precision antiquated is fair, nor do I believe the RCBS Chargemaster bridges the gap from antiquated to precise.

I go with just the throw and do weight checks after a few throws when I am loading plinking rounds for my Mini-14--the Harrell's Precision certainly throws consistent enough charges for that since I am not loading to max charge. When I am working up a test load or checking a load for accuracy, I set my Harrell's to just under the desired charge weight, then trickle charge from a Redding #5 into a RCBS 10-10.

As for 600-1000 yards, yes that has to be very precise--which leads into more details than the charge being .00 off. Since cases get sorted by weight, trimmed to an exact length off, bullets are seated off the o-give, case necks are turned, and a desired amount of crimp is placed with correctly chosen bushing allowing for .001" springback.

Click to expand...

You're fooling yourself if you think the Harrel's is significantly more accurate than any other powder measure; especially when it comes to extruded powder. If you had a good mag restoration balance you'd be able to prove it to yourself (like I have, and so many others).

Just like the numerous other comparisons on the web-

Real Guns - Extreme Measures, The Harrell Powder Measure

I don't mean to insult you guys, but it's obvious you've both bought into the "It's expensive so it must be awesome" mentality when there is a plethora of data indicating the Harrel's really doesn't bring much to the table. A cheapo Lee Powder Measure combined with a good balance (whether it's a Scott Parker tuned M5/10-10 or a solid digital) is a much better setup than relying on some fancy measure.

71firebird400 said:

You're fooling yourself if you think the Harrel's is significantly more accurate than any other powder measure; especially when it comes to extruded powder. If you had a good mag restoration balance you'd be able to prove it to yourself (like I have, and so many others).

Just like the numerous other comparisons on the web-

Real Guns - Extreme Measures, The Harrell Powder Measure

I don't mean to insult you guys, but it's obvious you've both bought into the "It's expensive so it must be awesome" mentality when there is a plethora of data indicating the Harrel's really doesn't bring much to the table. A cheapo Lee Powder Measure combined with a good balance (whether it's a Scott Parker tuned M5/10-10 or a solid digital) is a much better setup than relying on some fancy measure.

Click to expand...

I didn't buy into anything. I have $0.00 invested in my Harrell's Precision--got it buying and selling used equipment. So my praise for its accuracy isn't to validate my purchase, but based on experience. I feel their reservoir style powder dumping, is a better design especially for stick powders, versus the stem style drum or Dillon's slide bar system. Do I think it justifies being over double the cost of most powder measures, probably not. In the same breath neither do I think the Chargemaster warrants it's high cost. While the Chargemaster has a lot of neat features, the fact that it has a 1 year warranty is what stopped me from buying it.

If the user is going to trickle charge onto an accurate scale, than it doesn't matter what you use, heck grab an old spoon out of the drawer, or a Lee Dipper set if you want to get fancy.

71firebird400 said:

You're fooling yourself if you think the Harrel's is significantly more accurate than any other powder measure; especially when it comes to extruded powder. If you had a good mag restoration balance you'd be able to prove it to yourself (like I have, and so many others).

Just like the numerous other comparisons on the web-

Real Guns - Extreme Measures, The Harrell Powder Measure

I don't mean to insult you guys, but it's obvious you've both bought into the "It's expensive so it must be awesome" mentality when there is a plethora of data indicating the Harrel's really doesn't bring much to the table. A cheapo Lee Powder Measure combined with a good balance (whether it's a Scott Parker tuned M5/10-10 or a solid digital) is a much better setup than relying on some fancy measure.

Click to expand...

I did not buy it because it was expensive,(So get that out of you're head) I bought four other PM and tested all five. Of the five I kept a Uniflow and a Harrell. They both work well for my needs. I never claimed Harrell is the most accurate PM on earth.
I was only pointing out that a PM is a simple device that is not broke and a chargmaster will never replace it. YES I KNOW trickling/tweezing is the most accurate way. I'm not shooting Benchrest or F class, but if were I would trickl/tweez. I was generalizing that for the every day reloader a PM works best.

MDMarauder said:

I did not buy it because it was expensive,(So get that out of you're head) I bought four other PM and tested all five. Of the five I kept a Uniflow and a Harrell. They both work well for my needs. I never claimed Harrell is the most accurate PM on earth.
I was only pointing out that a PM is a simple device that is not broke and a chargmaster will never replace it. YES I KNOW trickling/tweezing is the most accurate way. I'm not shooting Benchrest or F class, but if were I would trickl/tweez. I was generalizing that for the every day reloader a PM works best.

Click to expand...

True, a powder measure is a useful tool. I just saw no significant improvement with the Harrel's over it's competitors (Uniflow, Lee PPM, Lyman 55) using an exceptionally accurate mag. restoration balance to weigh the charges dropped by both.

novalty said:

I feel their reservoir style powder dumping, is a better design especially for stick powders, versus the stem style drum or Dillon's slide bar system.

Click to expand...

When it comes to stick powders nothing seems to handle them exceptionally well; I would put a cheap Lee up against a Harrel's though. The Harrel's design is basically an improved Lyman No. 55. No innovation that regard.

The only problem i found with the Lee Perfect et al is that I could never get mine to stop leaking lol.

And it's nice to know that we all really do agree. Before I learned about mag force restoration scales and more, I know that *I* got sucked into buying a Chargemaster based on multiple reviews touting how consistent it was.

The truth is the Chargemaster is not an improvement over a good PM well operated. And neither is "dead on, all day long".

Twoboxer said:

The only problem i found with the Lee Perfect et al is that I could never get mine to stop leaking lol.

And it's nice to know that we all really do agree. Before I learned about mag force restoration scales and more, I know that *I* got sucked into buying a Chargemaster based on multiple reviews touting how consistent it was.

The truth is the Chargemaster is not an improvement over a good PM well operated. And neither is "dead on, all day long".

Click to expand...

I agree 100% with you.

TwoBoxer - have you talked with RCBS about the problems you're having? Your ChargeMaster is not working right, and they should "fix" it. (Quotes because the only way to fix Chinese electronics is to replace them.)

I have not experienced the same problems with the RCBS ChargeMaster that the OP reports. I'm not disputing his data, just saying that I've double-checked numerous loads thrown by my CM on an RCBS 5-0-5 and the CM alerts me on the rare occasions that it over-throws. I can count the number of under-throws on one hand.

Now the first ChargeMaster I bought would not hold zero. RCBS replaced it and paid for shipping both ways. PITA? Yes. But RCBS does stand behind its products. Based on my experience with RCBS, I wouldn't worry about the "1 year" warranty either. They re-calibrated my 5-0-5 years after purchase when I managed to ding one of the knife edges. For free other than shipping it to them.

Is the ChargeMaster more reliable than my Hornady powder measure? Not measurably, unless I'm throwing stick powder or something odd like TrailBoss. However, the ChargeMaster is much better with stick powders. Where it really excels is when I'm doing ladders for load development. (If mine performed like TwoBoxer's, it would be worthless.)

All that said, trickling up with a good beam scale works for me when I'm going for ultimate accuracy in rifle cartridges.

P.S. The RCBS techs will email you instructions for re-programming how the ChargeMaster throws powder. IIRC there are three different steps, and you can control both the speed and when each step occurs as the powder charge approaches your target. Extending the last, slow step for more grains below the target might help in the OP's case.

Should you need to re-program a device this expensive? Maybe not, but the factory settings are a compromise. Throwing Win-231 for .38 Special loads is nothing like throwing H-4895 for .308 Winchester. For me, it's nice to be able to adjust the setting depending on the weight of my target powder weight.

Should you need the McDonalds straw to make it function reliably at all? Absolutely not, but the RCBS tech even recommended that trick.

First off, I agree with most things you said.

There are many folks who frequently spot check thrown weights, and find nothing significant wrong. Using the data I showed, and excluding the 3 charges that were reported as high, ~92% of the time I'd have found throws either reported as high or within +/-0.1gr. I would have missed the fact that only one was actually high . . . 2 were reported as high when one was spot on and the other was actually low . . . but they wouldn't make it into a case.

Try a series of 50 throws minimum with yours, weigh them all, and see what you get.

I've never felt that the performance I've seen reflected a defective Chargemaster. I don't see it as much different than a powder measure, and I know the limitations of the scale they use.

HOWEVER, I have missed an opportunity to try and reprogram it during the final portion of the throw, and - given the pattern I observe - that may have a positive impact.

I'll do this when I get a chance, and I *will* report back. It would only be fair to do so.

Tried to take the first step in reprogramming the Chargemaster. Perhaps I am the first person who is NOT interested in speeding up the unit lol.

Called "RCBS", got ATK's central customer service, and was routed to "The RCBS Group" connecting with a human in short order.

I told him what I was experiencing and that I wanted to SLOW DOWN the rotation speed of the trickler during the final stage (which I believe is parameter W_S factory set at 036), and INCREASE the time the scale is given to settle before accepting the weight it transmits (which I believe is parameter S_S factory set at 128ms).

It quickly became clear that the tech's script only contained info on how to speed up the Chargemaster as reported in many forum posts. Each time he responded, I corrected him . . . don't care how long the charge takes . . . want to slow it down to try to improve accuracy . . . etc.

Finally he said he would email me a document containing the Chargemaster's parameters. I jumped at that offer, and we hung up.

The document arrived in minutes. It was a pdf that has been posted several times over the years . . . explaining how to modify the three speed ranges we already know about.

ETA: Sent an email back with detailed questions asking that it be forwarded to someone detail-familiar with programming the Chargemaster. Also realized that there are in fact FOUR speeds . . . high, medium, slow, and trickle. And it's TRICKLE that I want to slow down a bit and test.

I got another email from a second RCBS tech, and frankly it was no more help than the first contact. So I went ahead as planned.

The first change planned was to increase the amount of time the dispenser would delay before assuming the scale had settled on a weight when trickling the final charge. This parameter (S_S) was factory set at 128 (milleseconds). I entered 256, and got an error. I thought maybe the parameter was 8-bit binary, so I entered 255 and it was accepted. This effectively doubled the delay to about a quarter-second.

Here's how the new results differed from the (old):

Powder: H335
Target: 40.0gr (12 from 43.2gr to 47.1gr, 0.3gr or 0.4gr apart).
Total Loads: 50 (10 x 3 loads, 2 x 9 loads, total 48 loads).

According to the A&D FX120i, how did the RCBS Chargemaster do?

Loads within +/- 0.06gr of target = 43 or 86% (33 or 68.8%)
Loads within +/- 0.1gr of target = 49 or 98% (41 or 85.4%)
Loads not within +/- 0.1gr of target = 1 or 2% (7 or 14.6%)

When missing the target load, by more than +/- 0.1gr, how far off were they?

+0.16 (+0.5gr, +0.12gr, -0.12gr, -0.14gr, -0.16gr, -0.32gr, -1.04gr)

Does the RCBS miss more often High, or Low?

Exactly on target: 9 (4)
Higher than target: 24 (18)
Lower than target: 17 (26)

So IMO the Chargemaster performed more accurately with this single change . . . on this powder . . . in this sample of 50 throws . . . vs the last test of 48 throws.

Allowing the scale more time to settle seemed to reduce the underthrows. Watching the unit in operation, I could now see the scale read "40.00gr", then drop under, then dispense more. Prior to the change, the unit would freeze the "40.00gr" readout, stop dispensing, and leave me with a slightly low charge. This seems to have shifted the distribution of charges from more low to more high . . . and probably gives an indication why the unit uses the compromise factory settings that it does.

Next step, probably later tonight, is to try to slow down the trickle (slowest) speed and see if that decreases the overthrows.

What is really important?

The above discussion is why I really try hard to stay out of the Reloading Forum, but sometimes I just get sucked into reading the latest "Statistical Science".

I have a simple reloading / shooting / gun buying philosophy. I reload brass cases to shoot, I shoot because it is a satisfying experience, I buy a gun because I like it. Anything else is an impediment to my enjoyment of the shooting sports. Statistics are a major impediment to life.

I have conducted several accuracy tests of my own. The ultimate test is you pull the trigger, gun goes BANG, there is a new hole in the target. In the meantime, I will continue to load my ammo safely, not polish brass (clean is good enough), NEVER clean a primer pocket, trim rifle brass when needed, load home-cast pistol bullets lubed with home made lube, AND get to spend more time shooting.

Gun ownership is about shooting, reloading is about getting to shoot more. Powder weight error of 0.013 GRAINS is about as relevant as the color of gaseous emissions when eating Aunt Galenda's home baked beans or a can of store bought pork & beans.

EDIT: If you are shooting at 600 yards and beyond, I think wind speed and direction has greater influence on group size than miniscule differences in powder charges. I have shot groups that were 1" vertical dispersion at 300 yards and 24" horizontal dispersion because of the wind. That rifle will shoot a 5 shot, one ragged hole group at 100 yards.

Engineer1911: Happy you feel that way - I don't worry about "0.013 GRAINS" either. The issue for me is whether the RCBS Chargemaster is worth the time and $200+ more than a good standard powder measure.

As it turned out in the final tests, *raising* the trickle speed had a positive impact, improving the percentage of throws within +/- 0.06gr from 85% to 94%.

Lowering the trickle speed somehow made things slightly worse. But there may not be any actual difference between the settings, just somewhat random numbers. In any case, I still experienced at least one throw in 50 more than 0.1gr off target. As always, YMMV.

Last test will be to see how well a Hornady LnL PM can throw 40gr of the same powder.

I know you were all waiting with bated breath . . . here's the final test and comparison.

The S_S parameter controls the "Scale sensitivity timeout time in m/s" when using the slowest speed.

How did the Hornady LnL PM perform vs two runs by the Chargemaster using a S_S=255 vs S_S=128, the factory setting?

Powder: H335
Target: 40.0gr [40.0gr; 12 levels from 43.2gr to 47.1gr, 0.3gr or 0.4gr apart].
Total Loads: 50 [50; 10 x 3 loads, 2 x 9 loads, total 48 loads).

The powder measure was mounted alone on a LnL AP press, and a 308 case was used to activate the powder measure.

According to the A&D FX120i, how did the Hornady do?

Loads within +/- 0.06gr of target = 44/88% [43/86%; 33/68.8%]
Loads within +/- 0.1gr of target = 48/96% [49/98%; 41/85.4%)
Loads not within +/- 0.1gr of target = 2/4% [1/2%; 7/14.6%]

When missing the target load, by more than +/- 0.1gr, how far off was the Hornady?

-0.12gr, -0.12gr [+0.16gr; +0.5gr, +0.12gr, -0.12gr, -0.14gr, -0.16gr, -0.32gr, -1.04gr]

Does the Hornady miss more often High, or Low?

Exactly on target: 6 [9; 4]
Higher than target: 19 [24; 18]
Lower than target: 25 [17; 26]

My Conclusions, YMMV:

- Who knows if these 50-throw samples are representative of longer term performance?

- When using a powder KNOWN to be "good metering" like H335, the Chargemaster did not dispense more accurately than a good powder measure consistently operated, and may well be less consistent.

- Changing the S_S parameter from 128 to 255 may improve accuracy and shift the balance of inaccurate throws from slightly low to slightly high.

- Had I known this beforehand, I might not have bought a Chargemaster or any other dispenser/scale because I primarily use ball/flake and short-stick powders.

At some point I'll test how short and long stick powders (eg N-140 and IMR4350) compare, but for now I'm tired of throwing powder . . . and hoping the snow melts soon so I can move on to shooting

I wish someone would help throw me over the edge one way or the other by doing some detailed testing with the long-range/big-bore powders like H4831, IMR7828, Reloader 25, MRP, etc.

I have been on the fence for a long time on buying a Chargemaster. There are sure a lot of horror-stories. Ultimately, I suppose we all are looking for convenience at a level of precision these things are just not going to deliver - at least not in the current generation of devices. I've been hoping newer, improved versions would come along, but so far I don't see them.

This has been a good thread and very interesting, but I wonder how the Chargemaster and similar units work out with the big charges of stick propellants? (70-120 grains of H4831, for example.) I'd also be curious about very small charges of stick propellants like IMR4198 in .221/.222 size cases (~20 grains) - one of my favorites, but always tedious to load.

For now, like some others here, I remain convinced the only answer is "trickling in" each charge. I have never seen a powder measure made by anyone that throws acceptable charges with stick propellants.

M29since14 said:

. . . Ultimately, I suppose we all are looking for convenience at a level of precision these things are just not going to deliver - at least not in the current generation of devices. I've been hoping newer, improved versions would come along, but so far I don't see them.

This has been a good thread and very interesting, but I wonder how the Chargemaster and similar units work out with the big charges of stick propellants? (70-120 grains of H4831, for example.) I'd also be curious about very small charges of stick propellants like IMR4198 in .221/.222 size cases (~20 grains) - one of my favorites, but always tedious to load.

For now, like some others here, I remain convinced the only answer is "trickling in" each charge. I have never seen a powder measure made by anyone that throws acceptable charges with stick propellants.

Click to expand...

Well said lol !!

I'll probably be doing some short (N140) and long (IMR4350) extruded powders soon, and will report . . . because i'll be going through all the necessary steps anyhow, would just need to record the first A&D weighing.

But I'd predict the consistency isn't going to be any better. The issues of inconsistent "trickles" and a strain gauge scale just won't allow it.

The size of the powder charge won't affect the accuracy, though the deviations will appear smaller when expressed as a percent of the total charge. Whether hand trickled, PM'd, or Chargemaster-ed . . . the issues with case size should remain pretty much the same.

The Chargemaster may be the best device for throwing extruded powders that go crunch in PMs . . . whether you choose to re-weigh and hand adjust afterwards depends on your wants/needs. It is in fact a very good device for its price range . . . but its accuracy will not approach dump and trickle by hand on a mag force scale. Prices for adequate scales and consistent tricklers regardless of the powder used lead to "Prometheus" prices

Speaking of Prometheus . . . you might find this old article comparing "scales" interesting: Prometheus vs Harrel's, RCBS 5-10, etc. Last I heard, Prometheus II prices went to $2500, and then to lease-only.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with - particularly with 4350. It should tell the tale.

I think it a bit amusing that with the electronic "technology" rolleyes we have these days the same tools for preparing powder charges that I used when I started handloading 45-years ago are still among the best, for my purposes anyway. It is tempting to rely on the strain-gage electronic scales, but you better be careful where/when you inhale/exhale around them.

Funny you should mention "don't inhale/exhale". The A&D scale "fluttered" a lot when I first started using it. THAT was disappointing lol. Found out an over-the-shoulder task light created enough heat to create an air current over the scale . . . which changed whenever I moved or breathed . . . which caused the scale to vary weights. I put the scale inside a cheap 15"x15" storage cube to protect it and it's been rock solid ever since

50 throws of IMR4350, target 50.0gr:

Exact: 8, 16%
Low: 24, 48%
High: 18, 36%

+/-0.02gr: 19, 38%
+/-0.06gr: 41, 82%
+/-0.1gr: 43, 86%
>+/-0.1gr: 7, 14%

The charges >+/-0.1gr were all high 5x0.12gr, 0.18gr, 0.20gr

Chargemaster reported 3 charges as high; 1 as low. Those charges were excluded. The low one is interesting in that the scale (IMO) turns off too quickly under most conditions once the target is hit. Then, in this case, the scale settled back low . . . but refused to trickle more because it was "finished".

For my purposes and perhaps yours, the data indicates there's no significant difference in my Chargemaster's performance with this long extruded powder vs H335. But it may be better than your PM. I wouldn't bother throwing this powder in mine.

Thanks for that. Yes, strain gage scales are a bit of a nuisance owing to their environmental sensitivity. Without the helpful hints from PACT over the phone, I probably never would have figured out how to use their scale to my satisfaction. Now that I know better how the handle the tricks and traps, I get along with it fairly well.

Well, in view of your results, I think maybe a Chargemaster could be of help to me, especially considering I don't have a measure big enough to throw charges for some of the rifle cartridges I load, so I end up throwing two charges to get one, which is a hassle. Of course... I don't load a LOT of them. So that throws me back toward the fence. It makes for an expensive convenience.

Overall, if the Chargemaster will do what your test indicates, it might work out just fine for me, with a little careful use. I could always throw in a couple kernels of powder on my own for charges that settle low. For big charges for rifles, if I can maintain +/- 0.1 grain, I am usually satisfied. A tenth of a grain is easy to get comfortable with when the rifle gobbles up 112 grains every time you pull the trigger.

All I need to do now is "make financing arrangements."

Sounds like a plan. When you know the truth about a tool's performance, you can make a decision that will work for you.

0.2gr on 112gr is . . . zero