"Take your gun to church" - fascinating opinion enjoining a piece of NYS legislation

[marinevet]

It is called concealed carry for a reason.......

 

[NewSport]

church security

I have a question about armed safety and security teams in churches. I realize answers will vary state by state. I assume almost all churches carry insurance of various types to protect their buildings, property, employees, etc., also probably for financial and personal malfeasance by minsters, accountants, clerks, etc. Would the security teams/members be insured/protected while performing their voluntary duties? I'm thinking a missed shot and a bystander is injured or killed, a stampede of people fleeing the building and getting injured because of a wrong assumption of a threat, etc. I believe many police officers have qualified immunity in performance of their duty, I was curious if the members of the security teams were protected from liability as well.... Thank you.

 

[jimmyj]

I have a question about armed safety and security teams in churches. I realize answers will vary state by state. I assume almost all churches carry insurance of various types to protect their buildings, property, employees, etc., also probably for financial and personal malfeasance by minsters, accountants, clerks, etc. Would the security teams/members be insured/protected while performing their voluntary duties? I'm thinking a missed shot and a bystander is injured or killed, a stampede of people fleeing the building and getting injured because of a wrong assumption of a threat, etc. I believe many police officers have qualified immunity in performance of their duty, I was curious if the members of the security teams were protected from liability as well.... Thank you.

My Church has frequent practices of "Code Red" which is announced over the PA system by position three (at the main entrance). Church attendees idrop /lean over to the floor between the pews. Everyone is advised if CCW not to draw/display their weapons, as only the security team will react. At the start of each service all doors are locked/secured. (doors have fire/panic latches. The security team is a insured private security company that is part of the Church.

 

[moosedog]

A "No gun zone" is a target rich environment for the evil doers, no matter where it is.

 

[SAFireman]

I was a first responder to Sutherland Springs, TX, and I can tell you that it made an impression on me.

I would not discourage anyone from lawfully carrying there (church, movies, malls, ect).

 

[RetCapt]

I carry CCW in my church and always have. Most everyone knows my wife and I well. I taught the state mandated CCW course in this same church for almost twenty years. I was also the fire chief here for a number of years, so I am not exactly low profile.

We live in a very rural isolated area. Our congregation is small. Our demographic is old. Wonderful place to be retired in. I am the only member of our congregation with a LE background.

We sit in the rear of the sanctuary so that I can be in the best location to observe.

On only one occasion have I ever had to put into use my shepherd role, and that incident, while worthy of vigilance, did not escalate.

It happened during our annual Christmas pageant last year. As we entered the rear of the church several members were waiting for me to tell me (somewhat excitedly) that there was a person in the sanctuary, unknown to any of the congregation, who mentioned he had been considering suicide. He said he had ridden his bicycle from the closest town, 30 miles distant, to our community. This 30 miles was in winter over mountain roads.

I stood at the rear of the sanctuary where I could watch him during the pageant. He had with him a backpack, which of course I watched very closely. He kept looking around the room, and could not help but see me and the fact that I was watching him. That was fine with me as I wanted him to sense that if he tried anything I would be the one he would have to deal with, so I would be his focal point. At the conclusion of the pageant, while people were consuming refreshments, he approached me, told me of his 30 mile trip (and it was now dark), and that he needed a ride back to town. He asked if I could help in this respect. I told him I did not know of anyone present who had come all the way from town. I told him that since he had gotten himself out here, it was up to him to get himself back to town.

Given his circumstances and demeanor, there would be no way I would solicit a ride for him. I then lost sight of him.

A little later, as people were leaving, I escorted them to their cars in our unlit back overflow parking area. As we were walking out the women were thanking me for the escort as they were concerned about this individual. From the darkness came his voice: "I heard that." But he was not visible. So we knew he was still around.

We remained until the church elder had locked the building and departed, then we too left and went home.

The next day we checked the area, and there was no indication he had camped in the area, nor was there a bicycle.

Several days later the local newspaper arrived in the mail. In the sheriff's log there was an entry about this individual. Failing to score a ride, and it being very cold, he had called the sheriff's department to get a ride back to town. The dispatcher initially denied this request. So then the individual advised there were active warrants for his arrest. The dispatcher confirmed there were two felony (not stated what crimes) warrants for his arrest. He did get a ride - to the county jail.

The following Sunday, those members who were aware of what had been taking place were most appreciative.

One of the favorable elements is that most people were unaware of any of this as I was able to keep it low key.

I had had no reservations about not using Christmas spirit to get this young man a ride, given my suspicions. The existence of the warrants just confirmed that.

Nothing had happened. Although the individual had spotted me, and knew I was watching him, I never had to assert myself at all. It ended well.

Sometimes a shepherd has only to watch.

I am a believer in churches having shepherds. So is our congregation.

 

[Execpro]

When I joined a new church about 4 years ago, they had the typical “No Guns Allowed” signs on the entrance doors. I sat down with the Priest and we talked about the pros and cons of not allowing CCW holders to carry guns in church and what the ramifications of having those signs really did for the safety of those attending.
The Priest said he knew some of the members carried and that was fine with him. The signs were gone the next time I went to church.
When you have a Saturday or Sunday mass with 400 plus attending, police response time will NEVER be fast enough to prevent a mass slaughter of people when NO one is allowed to carry a gun in church ! Just Sayen!

 

[zzclancy]

My wife and I have legally carried CCW in church for over 19 years.

Nothing will change that.

We have a safety team I'm not counting on them to save us.

Best policy No One is Coming to Save You!

 

[zzclancy]

I expect the liberal answer to security at places of worship would be for them to hire armed security/off duty LEOs. Now, if all the various faiths would bond together and demand that, the resulting shortage of protection would make great press.

Unless it Uvalde or Parkland.

 

[murphydog]

I have a question about armed safety and security teams in churches. I realize answers will vary state by state. I assume almost all churches carry insurance of various types to protect their buildings, property, employees, etc., also probably for financial and personal malfeasance by minsters, accountants, clerks, etc. Would the security teams/members be insured/protected while performing their voluntary duties? I'm thinking a missed shot and a bystander is injured or killed, a stampede of people fleeing the building and getting injured because of a wrong assumption of a threat, etc. I believe many police officers have qualified immunity in performance of their duty, I was curious if the members of the security teams were protected from liability as well.... Thank you.

It would depend on the specific location and insurance policy/company, so it would be essential to check. In our situation the insurance agent is aware and the training and procedures we use have been approved.

 

[jimmyj]

My Church Safety Team Sunday Services (3) is conposed of six positions:
Position 1 : shadows the Pastor (stays within 6-8 ft at ALL times
Positions : #2 & #3 : sitting with congregation (on end pew- center isle)
Position #4 : Nartex (near PX mike) and observation though large glass doors.
Position #5 : patrols outside perimeter on golf cart
Position #6 : education / nursery building

*** Code Red Alert : Pastor and position #1 retreats to safe room back of the pulpit.
** If a Position calls for assistance Position #3 responds. one congregation position also responds.
* all positions are armed and non-lethal weapons are available in Nartex and congregation.

Other Church Services normally will have two positions. #1 and #4.
All doors are secured locked as soon as Service begins.

 

[BC38]

I cannot imagine living in a place where bringing a gun to church is even a thing. I pity anyone who lives in such a place.

I've been carrying at church for a long time. Most of the church leadership and staff are aware and approve.
Like a fire extinguisher, it is better to have and not need it than need and not have it.
If you can't imagine living anywhere that carrying at church is a good idea, I don't know where you can go to live. The link above shows 23 incidents in the last 23 years. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that if you look back at the last 50 or 100 years you'd find that there have been attacks on church congregations in pretty much every state in the union - not to mention in every other country in the world.

 

[johngalt]

I've been carrying at church. I haven't made any big announcements, but I don't think they would mind.

I wonder what their assertion on which a church is somehow different than any other public place, or that my rights are null and void upon entering is based.

 

[Beemer-mark]

Not too long ago I was on the Church Council and we invited a local detective to come and talk to us about security. When the question about allowing concealed carry came up his opinion was for the Church to have no opinion. Not for or against. Since I carry and I know a few other members do I was surprised when no one on the Council (including the Senior and Junior Pastors) didn't have one comment about his recommendation.

It is a sad fact we feel the need to carry when we go to Church. Our Church was build in 1863, used by the darn Yankees, and is close to downtown. Like almost any medium to large city downtown is scary when it comes to crime.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

For the record, when Texas passed the open carry provision of the Penal Code it didn't take long for my house of worship to post a no open carry sign in conformity with Section 30.07 of the Penal Code. I was a little irked so I asked about it and I was reminded that at several nights during the week we hosted a camera club and a knitting club, most of whose members were not members of our congregation. We have one lady at the desk buzzing people in, no armed security for those club folks, and the decision was reached to post that sign so IF someone came in with an openly carried handgun she could legitimately point out the violation and ask the person to leave or put his or her gun outside in their car.

Some time thereafter we had an active shooter training session - several, actually. During a question and answer session at the end some whiny jerk asked, "What about concealed handguns; we don't have a sign for that posted by the doors!!!"

The reply was a polite acknowledgement that that was true, "Yes, we know about that", which was a nice way of saying shut up, idiot. I was amused............

Way back years ago when I worked for the government I made a comment about carrying guns to churches and one of my colleagues was astounded. "Why would you ever carry a gun to church?"......I just ignored him.....

 

[walkin' trails]

The mainstream denomination I grew up in included members who are partially responsible for including churches in gun free zones. There was even a view back in the 60s-70s that it was against the Bible to carry a gun in church. My dad, a career city police officer, always carried off the clock, occasionally attended a service before or after work while still in uniform, and there were members who were really irked that he carried, or that they at least suspected he carried (always had a pair of handcuffs off duty too). Of course, there were also problems unrelated to guns where a church member or one of their children got in trouble, usually misdemeanor garbage (ex shoplifting), and were vexed that no one would waive a badge and make the paperwork and the incident go away. But anyway, I learned from my dad that there wasn't any such Biblical prohibitions against armed believers worshiping God, and further studied the issue myself. My rebellious streak tells me that if the church throws up the signs, go find another church. There may be other members who you'd otherwise miss who might even go with you.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I've been carrying at church for a long time. Most of the church leadership and staff are aware and approve.
Like a fire extinguisher, it is better to have and not need it than need and not have it.
If you can't imagine living anywhere that carrying at church is a good idea, I don't know where you can go to live. The link above shows 23 incidents in the last 23 years. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that if you look back at the last 50 or 100 years you'd find that there have been attacks on church congregations in pretty much every state in the union - not to mention in every other country in the world.

When my wife was growing up her family’s place of worship was one of the places of worship that was shot up in recent years. She lost a distant relative by marriage in that slaughter.

I have my permit and carrying at my house of worship is an honor, a privilege, a duty and a great responsibility. I pray that I never see a time when I need to rely on a weapon.

 

[somorris]

Our church has a security team, and the members carry concealed. Church policy says only those people who fill out an application and are approved by the Board can carry in church. We have no weapons allowed signs on the door because the church felt it could be dangerous if the church didn't know who was armed and some crazy started shooting.

 

[JM4151]

Concealed carry in church.

Several on our friends and others who know of my law enforcement background frequently tell me that they feel more secure when I am at Mass and they know that I am armed.

 

[murphydog]

Our church has a security team, and the members carry concealed. Church policy says only those people who fill out an application and are approved by the Board can carry in church. We have no weapons allowed signs on the door because the church felt it could be dangerous if the church didn't know who was armed and some crazy started shooting.

The signage may be a legal requirement depending on state or local law where you live. Also, if the sign adds "except by authorized personnel" it gives the strong implication that there will be an effective response to any trouble and may deter problems from starting.