SCOTUS Rules 'Ghost Guns' are Illegal

[biku324]

Here's the case info:

BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL, ET AL. v.
VANDERSTOK ET AL.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE FIFTH CIRCUIT
No. 23–852. Argued October 8, 2024

"The GCA embraces, and thus permits ATF to regulate, some weapon parts kits and unfinished frames or receivers, including those we have discussed. Because the court of appeals held otherwise, its judgment is reversed, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion."

[AudieMurphy]

I remember back in the day. Blackpowder kits were popular and a big thing. Nothing was ever said much about that. It only became an issue after the tupperware became popular and then "parts kits" became the craze...probably because they're automatics with large cap mags....we all know now what serial numbers are for after you fill out a 4473 that gun you just bought goes into a data base with your name...Guns without serial numbers just make us lawabiding owners look bad...time to do the right thing

[TXBryan]

This is from today's Patriot Post

Bryan

SCOTUS upholds "ghost gun" regs: The U.S. Supreme Court has issued its decision on the Biden administration's rule that severely limits Americans' ability to obtain gun parts online to assemble their own firearms. The root issue was whether the ATF had the authority to issue such a sweeping regulation defining and regulating so-called "ghost guns." In a 7-2 ruling this morning, the justices upheld the new regulation by pointing to the federal Gun Control Act that grants the government this power. As Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote, the law "embraces and thus permits ATF to regulate some weapon parts kits." Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito dissented from the majority, with Thomas contending that the Court "blesses the government's overreach based on a series of errors."

[Telecaster]

Weren't the Revolutionary War Kentucky Flintlocks technically "ghost guns"?

[murphydog]

I disagree with the ruling, but it does not make 80% receivers and the like “illegal”, likely just subject to the same regulations as factory guns. It is a potential slippery slope if other guns parts can be regulated the same way. Not a great SCOTUS opinion.

[rosewood]

Wasn't the case about buying "80%" lower or the like from a manufacturer? You can still build your own from scratch I believe. I do still wonder, exactly where do you draw the line? A block of steel has the potential to be a gun. Just like the oil filter on your car can be "readily" converted to a suppressor.

Rosewood

[Denverd0n]

Yes, you can still build your own from scratch. What's more, the ruling specifically says that it is likely that this will only apply to SOME of the kits that are on the market. So, no, the Supreme Court has not ruled that so-called ghost guns are illegal. They have essentially said that the ATF has the authority to regulate some of these kits, and that the specific challenge from the original suit should be reheard with that in mind.

[jb28]

i think its a bad ruling, but 3d printing has largely made 80% receivers moot; if not obsolete

[iPac]

Granting any of these gov't agencies with more "power" is never a good idea. Especially when every single one of them work in direct opposition to the average American's rights.

[smoothshooter]

Who didn’t see that one coming.

[HeyJoe]

not too hard to see now how any challenge to the gun Control Act itself will be decided

[TJm15.38]

I confess, I think I would feel uncomfortable owning a firearm without a serial number. I'd feel even more uncomfortable possessing a firearm in which the serial number was removed. When I built two ARs, I started with stripped, serialized lower receivers. I just wasn't interested in an 80% lower without a serial number.

I read the article in American Rifleman about the new Ruger RXM. It indicated that the only serialized part is the fire control group. Is the trigger assembly going to be regarded as a "firearm" by the ATF? This differs greatly from the Glocks I own, as every frame, slide and barrel has matching serial numbers.

[rosewood]

What benefit is there for having a serial number? Only thing I see is to recover if stolen.

Most guns used in crime are stolen, so the serial number does nothing other than maybe getting back to the owner, and is some states, that still doesn't happen.

Rosewood

[stansdds]

There are two valid reasons for serial numbers, recovery of stolen property (if you are lucky) and factory warranty/service. Obviously, if you build it yourself, you are also going to be the one who provides the warranty and/or service. The SCOTUS knows how to play ball, they don't want the court to grow to 13 or 15 justices a few years down the road.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by rosewood

What benefit is there for having a serial number? Only thing I see is to recover if stolen.

Most guns used in crime are stolen, so the serial number does nothing other than maybe getting back to the owner, and is some states, that still doesn't happen.

Rosewood

The notion that all guns used in committing crimes are stolen is not fact - it's said a lot, but it's just not true.

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by biku324

The notion that all guns used in committing crimes are stolen is not fact - it's said a lot, but it's just not true.

Do you have some percentages to refute that statement? The majority of gun crime is gang activity and drug related. Are you saying most of those have their guns legally?

Even if that, how does having a serial number solve a crime unless the person that bought the gun, threw it down at the scene. I just don't see that being a common problem.

Rosewood

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by stansdds

There are two valid reasons for serial numbers, recovery of stolen property (if you are lucky) and factory warranty/service. Obviously, if you build it yourself, you are also going to be the one who provides the warranty and/or service.

Exactly.

I heard a good explanation of the ruling from Washington Gun Law. The ruling isn't as bad as it seems. The major problem with the case was the way the law/ruling was being challenged. It really didn't change much in the way the law is enforced, just put Polymer 80 out of business.

Rosewood

[old tanker]

Originally Posted by TJm15.38

I confess, I think I would feel uncomfortable owning a firearm without a serial number.

There was no requirement to place serial numbers on firearms before the Gun Control Act of 1968. Tens of thousands of store brand rifles and shotguns were sold without them. I own at least a dozen. Some are antiques by that same GCA 68 and not firearms, but I am reasonably certain my un-numbered P-53 Enfield is still as deadly as it was in 1862 when it ran the blockade to arm the Confederacy.

Some are modern. I have a JC Higgins shotgun sold by Sears that has no serial and a single shot 22 "boy's rifle" sold by Belknap Hardware. I agree with Justice Thomas, this is bad law based on bad facts.

[Denverd0n]

Originally Posted by biku324

The notion that all guns used in committing crimes are stolen is not fact - it's said a lot, but it's just not true.

May be said a lot, but it hasn't been said here.


This, by the way, is what's known as a straw-man argument.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by Denverd0n

May be said a lot, but it hasn't been said here.


This, by the way, is what's known as a straw-man argument.

Re-read the thread - post 13. I quoted it in my post.

[326MOD10]

Here ya go.

Looks like 10 to 15 percent are stolen.

[biku324]

Indeed - I ran (among many other things in an HQ assignment) the NMSP armory where we kept firearms used in crimes or seized in raids, etc. Only a few were reported stolen, and those were returned to those who reported them stolen.

Here's a useful data link. https://bjs.ojp.gov/document/suficspi16.pdf

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by 326MOD10

Here ya go.

Looks like 10 to 15 percent are stolen.

Ok, I guess I stated it in a broad brush. They are obtained illegally. Which having a serial still doesn't stop them from doing so.

I am betting that "obtained from underground market" was likely stolen, just not by the bearer at the time.

Rosewood

[Denverd0n]

Originally Posted by biku324

Re-read the thread - post 13. I quoted it in my post.

He said "most guns," you said "all guns." Perhaps you need to re-read your own post.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by rosewood

Ok, I guess I stated it in a broad brush. They are obtained illegally. Which having a serial still doesn't stop them from doing so.

I am betting that "obtained from underground market" was likely stolen, just not by the bearer at the time.

Rosewood

No on both. Many states have no restrictions on private sales - many guns from those states get taken to states with tighter laws and comprise underground gun markets. As well, lots of folks committing crimes have not yet been arrested or convicted so are legally able to purchase/possess firearms. Stolen guns are entered into NCIC, and no matter when/how they are encountered, they are seized and eventually returned.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by Denverd0n

He said "most guns," you said "all guns." Perhaps you need to re-read your own post.

Fair point.

[Beemerguy53]

It seems people will always find a way to screw something up.

For decades, hobbyists were able to build guns for their own use. It was an innocent activity, totally consistent with our traditions, our heritage, and with the 2nd Amendment. Until criminals realized they could take advantage of it...

In Baltimore and other urban areas, there were enterprising thugs who set up shop buying parts kits and churning out completed guns to sell to criminals. There have been a number of news stories over the last few years about "ghost guns" being recovered at crime scenes, carried by students in schools, etc.

There is no way the manufacturers and retailers of these kits didn't know what the end product was being used for. When you're manufacturing or selling gun parts kits ostensibly for hobbyists, but you start getting orders for dozens or hundreds to be shipped to one address, it's pretty obvious what's going on.

The gun parts kit industry brought this on themselves...it serves them right.

[dockmurgw]

Originally Posted by biku324

No on both. Many states have no restrictions on private sales - many guns from those states get taken to states with tighter laws and comprise underground gun markets. As well, lots of folks committing crimes have not yet been arrested or convicted so are legally able to purchase/possess firearms. Stolen guns are entered into NCIC, and no matter when/how they are encountered, they are seized and eventually returned.

And then there are straw purchases. Here's just one of many examples here locally.

One Man's Buying Spree Exposes the Drugs-for-Guns Trade in Vermont | Seven Days Vermont

[Drm50]

What does this do about pre 68 guns that were not serial numbered? Are these now illegal?

[venomballistics]

seems to me that PMF's remain unchanged, and 80% lowers simply fall into the same category as a full commercial lower, requiring FFL transfer.

Remember how soft point, hollow point FMJ and teflon coated all got called "cop killer bullets" .... just change it to ghost gun.
I hear the Hoffman Tactical 3D printed lowers are pretty decent when squirted from PETG CF.
I imagine it's less labor intensive as well

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by venomballistics

Remember how soft point, hollow point FMJ and teflon coated all got called "cop killer bullets" ....

That was after they graduated from being Dum Dums......Ben

[WCCPHD]

The term "ghost guns" is a anti-gun group made up term used to label something so they can get the "sheep" to believe it, hate it and push to ban it.

We as gun owners should never use their terms. It just gives legitimacy to a illegitimate idea.

[biku324]

Originally Posted by Drm50

What does this do about pre 68 guns that were not serial numbered? Are these now illegal?

No. They are grandfathered. I have one.

[Fishinfool]

Just to ad fuel to the fire - The ATF estimates there are an average of 266,000 firearms stolen in the US each year.

I cant give an actual, verified number, but my experience in LE has been that a fairly significant percentage of those end up in crimes, even if the perpetrator was not the person who originally stole it. And there are quite a few folks, who for whatever reason, do not report firearms theft to the police.

R/E the original topic, as a non-licensed individual, you are still allowed to manufacture a firearm from scratch for personal use (non-resale), and I don't believe a serial number is required.

Larry

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Denverd0n

He said "most guns," you said "all guns." Perhaps you need to re-read your own post.

But neither is true . . .

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Fishinfool

I cant give an actual, verified number, but my experience in LE has been that a fairly significant percentage of those end up in crimes, even if the perpetrator was not the person who originally stole it.

Most never show up . . .

[Neumann]

Where were serial numbers in 1789 (signing of the Constitution)?

[bushmaster1313]

Originally Posted by TJm15.38

I confess, I think I would feel uncomfortable owning a firearm without a serial number. I'd feel even more uncomfortable possessing a firearm in which the serial number was removed. When I built two ARs, I started with stripped, serialized lower receivers. I just wasn't interested in an 80% lower without a serial number.

I read the article in American Rifleman about the new Ruger RXM. It indicated that the only serialized part is the fire control group. Is the trigger assembly going to be regarded as a "firearm" by the ATF? This differs greatly from the Glocks I own, as every frame, slide and barrel has matching serial numbers.

On my everyday carry gun, a Sig P365, the serial number is on the "Fire Control Unit" (FCU). Here is a picture of a P365 FCU from the Sig Sauer website:


IMHO it does not look much like a firearm. In fact, at first glance it's hard to tell which end is the business end.

As to the Supreme Court's "Ghost Gun" opinion, it does not directly impact me whether 80% receivers are or are not a firearm for purposes of ATF regulation. On the other hand, it matters to all firearm owners that the firearm laws of the United States are clear and make sense. Unfortunately, this decision regarding so-called "Ghost Guns" only muddies the waters.

[elgatodeacero]

This thread title is incorrect and misleading.

Here is a sober analysis of this case.

Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Decides VanDerStok

[rosewood]

I have a question about Ghost guns. Exactly how does a ghost hold a gun? I mean, can they handle solid objects? Why are ghost restricted from owning guns, I mean, are they now part of the forbidden class?

Rosewood

[stansdds]

Originally Posted by rosewood

I have a question about Ghost guns. Exactly how does a ghost hold a gun? I mean, can they handle solid objects? Why are ghost restricted from owning guns, I mean, are they now part of the forbidden class?

Rosewood

Based on TV shows I've seen on Discovery Channel, ghosts can slam doors, move chairs, and make chandeliers swing, so maybe they can hold guns.

[ladder13]

Alito and Thomas are our rocks in SCOTUS. Going to miss either when they retire.

[stansdds]

Originally Posted by ladder13

Alito and Thomas are our rocks in SCOTUS. Going to miss either when they retire.

Unfortunately, they are frequently a two against seven when it comes to decisions.

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by Neumann

Where were serial numbers in 1789 (signing of the Constitution)?

Respectfully, that sounds exactly like the anti-2A argument that "assault weapons" didn't exist when the Constitution was written...

[Beemerguy53]

Originally Posted by Fishinfool

Just to ad fuel to the fire - The ATF estimates there are an average of 266,000 firearms stolen in the US each year.

I cant give an actual, verified number, but my experience in LE has been that a fairly significant percentage of those end up in crimes, even if the perpetrator was not the person who originally stole it. And there are quite a few folks, who for whatever reason, do not report firearms theft to the police.

R/E the original topic, as a non-licensed individual, you are still allowed to manufacture a firearm from scratch for personal use (non-resale), and I don't believe a serial number is required.

Larry

Here in Maryland, owners of firearms that are lost or stolen are required to report the loss or theft within 72 hours after discovering it...

Maryland Public Safety Code Section 5-146 (2024) - Lost or Stolen Regulated Firearms :: 2024 Maryland Code :: U.S. Codes and Statutes :: U.S. Law :: Justia

[biku324]

Originally Posted by elgatodeacero

This thread title is incorrect and misleading.

Here is a sober analysis of this case.

Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Decides VanDerStok

I'd mildly suggest that 'ghost guns' were illegal when the case went to SCOTUS; after they ruled, ghost guns are still illegal but with finality.

How many devils can dance on the head of a pin?

[rosewood]

Originally Posted by Beemerguy53

Respectfully, that sounds exactly like the anti-2A argument that "assault weapons" didn't exist when the Constitution was written...

They sure did. Black Powder Muzzle loaders were the assault weapons of the day. They were "weapons of war".

I believe the point was, we didn't need serial numbers back then (not required by Constitution), so we don't need them now.

Rosewood

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by biku324

I'd mildly suggest that 'ghost guns' were illegal when the case went to SCOTUS; after they ruled, ghost guns are still illegal but with finality.

How many devils can dance on the head of a pin?

Not all "ghost guns" are illegal. The opinion addressed 80% lowers. It is perfectly legal to 3D print your own gun. The majority opinion recognizes this. All of the metal parts can be obtained from Home Depot, with the exception of the barrel, which is perfectly legal to purchase. What has always been illegal is transferring a "ghost gun" without obtaining a serial number for it . . .

[biku324]

16 devils? Only 9? Not much room on the head of a pin.

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by elgatodeacero

This thread title is incorrect and misleading.

Here is a sober analysis of this case.

Second Amendment Roundup: Supreme Court Decides VanDerStok

I just read that, and now I have an almost overwhelming desire to beat certain people with a heavy stick until they learn to speak plainly.