Underwood 38 special WC versus Semi WC

For defensive use in S&W 642 and LCR

Standard pressure.

I am debating between the hard cast 158 grain semi-wadcutter and the 150 grain wad cutter.

The full wadcutter description does not state if it is hard or soft lead.

I like the slightly better reloading with the semi wadcutter.

If choosing between these which would you prefer and why?

If strongly opposed to either of these two rounds why? And what would you recommend instead?

Semi-Wad for Defense

The semi-wadcutter has a good track record with law enforcement agencies that have lots of street experience to draw from. NYPD used the semi-wadcutter as did the FBI prior to their transition to autoloaders. The full wadcutter is best reserved for practice. If the full wadcutter was a proven and reliable man-stopper, it would have enjoyed much wider acceptance as a defensive round.

I don't think the wadcutter meets the minimum penetration requirements that the police and federal agencies feel is needed.

federali could not have said it better!!
I would get a box of Underwood 158gr LSWCHP in both regular and in +p velocity and see which one your gun and you like to shoot better and gives the most accuracy and controllability.
My S&W Model 360j would only shoot poa=poi with a 158gr load.
I preferred the Underwood 158+p because it presented less leading and produces 351ft/lbs of energy from a 3” bbl (all 38’s are shot from a 3” bbl except the Keith load per Underwood). I would NOT get the hard cast bullet for self defense!!!!! It was designed for hunting 4 legged critters out of a 6”+ bbl. I would think it unmanageable in a small - light handgun and create a major over penetration issue!

I carry Speer Gold Dot 135gr+p and Winchester Ranger Bonded 130gr+p. They both group well, but the 642 liked the SGD and the Taurus M85 liked the Wincester.



Be SAFE and Shoot often!

For a standard pressure load, I'd be inclined to try out Winchester's 130gr Defend JHP load. It seems to perform reasonably well in gel, though I'm unaware of any actual shootings with it. My actual favorite is Federal's 125gr Nyclad, but it's been discontinued for a while now and I'm hoarding the last couple of boxes I have.

I prefer HP to solid bullets because I think the HP will be more likely to damage tissue even if it doesn't expand due to a "cookie cutter" effect, if you will. How much of an advantage that might be, I can't say, but the only things we can control is bullet choice and shot placement, with shot placement being the more important of the two. If I can get a slight edge in terminal performance, presuming it doesn't negatively affect reliability or shootability, I'll take advantage of that.

To your specific question, if I had to choose between SWC or WC, I'd probably go with the WC because I think the flat meplate may have an advantage when it comes to tissue disruption over the SWC (again, I can't say for sure how much of an advantage that would be, and hard cast would be better than soft cast in that regard) and in gel tests they will actually penetrate within the FBI range of 12-18" when fired from a 2" barrel. I can't say for sure, but I think the SWC may exceed that penetration range by a considerable margin, which increases the risk for overpenetration. Plus, the WC typically has lower recoil, though I have seen some WC offerings that are loaded a little hotter, i.e. Buffalo Bore's 150gr hard cast WC; these would likely have more penetration than the typical target WC. I would probably choose a different bullet profile for reloads, though, as the short, flat WC profile doesn't lend itself to performing smooth reloads.

I will add that, technically, Buffalo Bore's standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP would be an option, but in my experience it shoots like +P, so I don't know if that would meet your needs.

However, my first choice for a .38 snubby load is the Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P. It's what I keep in my 642. It's on the snappy side, but not what I would call uncontrollable. It's developed a pretty solid reputation in actual shootings and typically performs well in gel.

My second choice is the aforementioned standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP. Also known as the FBI load, it's been made by different manufacturers and, in general, has developed a solid reputation, too.

Either. The person you shoot will never know the difference.

ContinentalOp said:

...My second choice is the aforementioned standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP. Also known as the FBI load, it's been made by different manufacturers and, in general, has developed a solid reputation, too.

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That's my first choice, in both two- and four-inch barrels. It's ballistically equal to the +P Remington FBI load before that venerable and proven product was watered down recently.

The +P Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP-GC approaches low-end .357 Magnum velocity, and likely would be a handful in an Airweight snub .38.

Flyingfool said:

For defensive use in S&W 642 and LCR

Standard pressure.

I am debating between the hard cast 158 grain semi-wadcutter and the 150 grain wad cutter.

The full wadcutter description does not state if it is hard or soft lead.

I like the slightly better reloading with the semi wadcutter.

If choosing between these which would you prefer and why?

If strongly opposed to either of these two rounds why? And what would you recommend instead?

Click to expand...

Really read the Underwood website good, they state the 150 grain wadcutter load is a hard cast. The 158 solid SWC is the outdoorsman load, it would be a handful in the snub.

federali said:

The semi-wadcutter has a good track record with law enforcement agencies that have lots of street experience to draw from. NYPD used the semi-wadcutter as did the FBI prior to their transition to autoloaders. The full wadcutter is best reserved for practice. If the full wadcutter was a proven and reliable man-stopper, it would have enjoyed much wider acceptance as a defensive round.

I don't think the wadcutter meets the minimum penetration requirements that the police and federal agencies feel is needed.

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NYPD used 158 grain LSWC’s until finally transitioning to the LSWCHP +P FBI load. Read on what Jim Cirillo had to say about the 158 grain LSWC. He wasn’t impressed, and considered the FBI load a big step up in effectiveness.

And, you think wrong about the penetration of a full wadcutter. They will easily reach such penetration depths in ballistic gel via the FBI testing protocols. As far as wounding potential, some claim the full wadcutter design punches s “cookie cutter” hole through flesh just as if it were the paper targets it was designed to be used on. I have not witnessed a test on this load that really bears that out, in reality the permanent wound track is generally indistinguishable form a standard 158 grain RNL bullet.

OP, while neither of those loads would be ineffective with proper shot placement, there are better choices to be had. Both the NYPD and LAPD had good success with the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain +P hollow point from their off duty snub nose revolvers. There is also the new Federal HST .38 special load that has gotten rave reviews for its expansion and penetration in gel. Another great choice is the Remington Golden Saber 125 grain +P load with the “enhanced jacket” design.

Lots of myths out there on what’s best from a J-frame. Many people will just blurt out whatever their pet load is and proclaim it as the best around, but in actuality, the very short barrels on these guns are a detriment to proper bullet performance. In all of my research, there are only a handful of rounds that both penetrate to the proper depths to reliably reach vital organs AND expand to increase wounding ability and decrease overpenetration risks. Those three loads I mention are at the top of the pack if you REALLY want the best, most proven, most effective loads out there for your little .38 special.

It's all speculation, since there isn't enough data in real life situations to compare the two. I pretty much agree with Univibe, the bad guy wouldn't know the difference. I'd get a box of each and see which I shoot best out of my S&W 642.

Underwood lists the performance in terms of velocity and energy to be about equal for either the 158 grain SWC or the 150 grain full wad cutter. Essentially 850 fps and 240 to 250 ft-lbs. I am not sure what barrel length these numbers are based upon. But at least one person on their own chronograph lists over 900 fps out of an LCR. However that MAY have been using 357 as it was unclear if the cartridge was 357 mag or 38 special. The posting only listed that the gun was the LCR 357, but is listed under the 38 special search.

If these factory specs are true, I would like to know how someone could conclude that the full wad cutter would be NOTICABLY less recoil versus the semi wad cutter. The minimal difference in weight and velocity and energy would suggest a pretty small difference. But maybe in a light 642 the difference would be noticed.

I woild also like to understand how the semiwadcutter would penetrate significantly more than the full wad cutter. They are both NON expanding, and both about the same weight moving at about the same velocity. So that would seem to indicate they would achieve about the same penetration. Perhaps the relative “roundness” of the semi would have a slight advantage for deeper penetration. But it would seem to me to be pretty small. But I don’t have the experience to really know for sure and would love to learn.

Also, going to Buffalo Bore website and specs. BB two similar offerings (158 SWC and 150 WC) also list both at basically the same 850 fps and 240 to 250 ft-lbs. SO I do not see how the Underwood offering would be dramatically different than the Buffalo bore in recoil or performance. I would even speculate that the bullet themselves may be the exact same source at least for the full wad cutter. Buffalo bore semi is however hollow point by the picture, while the underwood is simply solid flat metplat.

My research so far also seems to indicate that from a snubbie, there is little that would indicate reliable expansion. And those that do expand, only show this expansion in gel. I personally believe there is less than 50% chance that a bullet shot center of mass will result in missing a bone. Between the sternum and the ribs, there is a greater chance of hitting a bone than not. I am concerned that the HST which looks beautiful in the gel will do little more than go “splat” if it hits a bone. The Winchester Defend bullet again looks beautiful in gel. But Paul Herrel video where he shoots the “meat target” proves that the bullet was completely unimpressive.

Given that expansion out of a snubbie, is at best marginal. I would tend to want a bullet that will smash through a bone rather than possibly “spat” if it hits a bone. If even hollow points in fact rarely expand, may as well not count on expansion and those pretty gel test photo’s as there is better chance it will hit a bone, and even if it doesn’t is unlikely to expand anyhow. That is what has led me to these two bullets in the OP as explaoned further below.

I have read that the fixed site S&W J-Frames were “regulated” to shoot POA=POI with 158 grain bullets. So I am a little dubious about the 125 and 135 grain offerings and even +P in Gel show marginal expansion at the same 850 to 870 fps” velocities (luckygunner 2” barrel). The bullet may perform but the accuracy may not be ideal. But maybe this is a non-issue at typical belly to belly up close SD situations that the J-Frame is probably most often encountered.

How I arrived at these two ammunition choices for my OP.

1) 38 special, bullet expansion is questionable
2) Higher chance the bullet will strike a bone
3) Less chance bullet will “splat” if it hits a bone and not penetrate enough
4) Accuracy of gun regulated to grain weight of around 150 grains
5) Cost

This “narrowed” the choice at meast for me, to Buffalo Bore and Underwood

Buffalo Bore 158 grain Semi (20C) is listed as a “soft” lead hollow point at 850fps/253 ft-lbs and $29 per box

Underwood 158 grain Semi is listed as “hard cast” 854 fps/256 ft-lbs and $19 per box - $10/box cheaper!

Buffalo Bore 150 grain (20D) HARD CAST full wad cutter 850/241 and $29/box

Underwood 150 grain Hard cast full wad cutter 850/241 and $13.50/box less than half the price of BB!

The choice (at the time of my Original post) of underwood really came to edge out BB on the price. Based ONLY upon “book” analysis. Since I would want to go with a single type, and fast reloading would be slight preference to semi wadcutter. I think I will have to buy and compare three ammunitions.

1) Underwood 158 grain semi wadcutter (Std pressure)
2) Buffalo Bore 158 grain hollow semi wadcutter (Std Pressure)
And for comparison purposes
3) Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P as it seems to be recommended highly.

I am curious to compare perceived felt recoil and accuracy between these ammo’s.

My apologies. I somewhow missed that you were talking about the hotter Underwood ammo. The info in my post was regarding standard factory fodder.

When I wore a badge, I had the opportunity to talk to a lot of folks. Many of them were coroners os assistant coroners. Several of them carried concealed firearms. The ones that carried the 38 Special carried the wadcutter load of some sort, I did not ask specifics but did ask general questions.

Ed Harris also thought highly of the full power hard cast wadcutter load.

Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. - [url]www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com[/url]

When I carried a 38, I carried a harder cast wadcutter it about 850 FPS. Mine were hand loads as the boutique loaders had not started yet.

Kevin

Either will do the job if you hit with it. Neither will do the job if you miss. A TARGET wadcutter is a little light for serious SD work due to lack of penetration. The hotter Underwood load might not have that problem.

My J frame snub nose will shoot a lead 158 at POA if under 770fps.

A full load +P will shoot high right and this is one reason I load
the 135gr GD for my SD loading.

If I had to carry my snubbie, I'd handload me some 158 grain hardcast at max published data, and be done with it.

If money is no object, try the Black Hills Honey Badger. I saw a gel test on one of the outdoor or Sportsman channel shows and the wound cavity was impressive.

Black Hills HoneyBadger Ammo 38 Special +P 100 Grain - MPN: D38N4

JayFramer said:

NYPD used 158 grain LSWC’s until finally transitioning to the LSWCHP +P FBI load.

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I am not aware of NYPD ever using .38 Special LSWCHP. They may have gone from 158gr SWC to +P SWC.

When NYPD adopted the 9MM they were restricted to FMJ for political reasons. It took awhile before they were able overcome the political opposition to hollow points.

NYPD if memory serves me correctly went from LSWC to the Federal Nyclad SWC

jupiter1 said:

I am not aware of NYPD ever using .38 Special LSWCHP. They may have gone from 158gr SWC to +P SWC.

When NYPD adopted the 9MM they were restricted to FMJ for political reasons. It took awhile before they were able overcome the political opposition to hollow points.

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My mind, in its young age, may have failed me. I a deeply, deeply sorry.

Now recalling, it seems Jim Cirillo was not impressed with the SWC loads and wished for the FBI load. I do know that he wasn’t impressed with the SWCs.

A

JayFramer said:

My mind, in its young age, may have failed me. I a deeply, deeply sorry.

Now recalling, it seems Jim Cirillo was not impressed with the SWC loads and wished for the FBI load. I do know that he wasn’t impressed with the SWCs.

Click to expand...

Jim wasnt impresed with LRN but loved the wadcutter and later developed the "Safe stop"