Hollow Point vs. Round-Nose Ammo

AJ said:

I have always said that shot placement is the key. The problem is that quite a few folks have a hard time hitting a target with no stress on them. When it is a high stress environment, their shooting gets even worse.

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As I was giving my initial response, I was listening to a news story out of Chicago. Earlier today, a Texas CHL holder was the victim of a carjacking. He took 4 rounds (2 to the chest, 2to the knee) while engaging the two carjackers. There was no indication that the victim connected with either carjacker.

AJ said:

I don't doubt it. When I went to Battalion Schools to learn Combat Shooting, we did a lot of man on man competition. That is two shooters standing side by side and shooting a targets that were the same for each shooter, the first shooter finished was the winner. Also our instructors would try to distract us while we shot. Also they would rig our targets to fall with only head shots, and not tell you.

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I remember taking a training course that incorporated not only shooting under stress, but also thinking under stress. The final exercise involved firing a 7-round string of fire at a target with numbers on it. The instructor would yell out which number(s) to hit. After the string, we'd have to run back to the bench, pick up a mag, run back to the firing position (a total of about 50ft), and repeat the cycle until 50 rounds had been fired. Exhausting, but made me glad to know I could think and shoot accurately under stress (well, simulated stress).

lrrifleman said:

As I was giving my initial response, I was listening to a news story out of Chicago. Earlier today, a Texas CHL holder was the victim of a carjacking. He took 4 rounds (2 to the chest, 2to the knee) while engaging the two carjackers. There was no indication that the victim connected with either carjacker.

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I've read stories of people shooting at each other from 6ft apart and missing with every shot. 6 feet.

As much as I would like to say the training and practice I've done would have me prepared to deal with a threat like that, I won't truly know unless I'm forced into that situation. I hope I never have to find out.

ContinentalOp said:

As much as I would like to say the training and practice I've done would have me prepared to deal with a threat like that, I won't truly know unless I'm forced into that situation. I hope I never have to find out.

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Have been shot at in the past and know how I reacted then. Will I react the same way now if it was to happen again? Years ago we expected to be shot at, nowadays I do not expect to be shot at. So..........

memtb said:

Jon651, The FMJ is much better than nothing! However, a JHP If properly placed will shut down the assailant much quicker....unless the FMJ hits the CNS. The JHP, will do much greater tissue damage....organs, blood vessels, and bone fragmentation. The FMJ wound (basically a puncture wound) will quickly close, minimizing blood loss and help the assailant maintain his/her blood pressure longer. Think about stepping on a nail, the flesh closes over the nail entrance....minimizing blood loss!

As added benefit, the JHP will penetrate less through walls, furniture, etc.than will the FMJ, which may prevent someone else in your home from getting injured by a pass through....it may even exit your home endangering your next door neighbor! memtb

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Have dug out a lot HP slugs that did not open up, in fact a lot of them closed down and still did not expand.

FMJ 100% reliable.

Hollow points are fragile bullets. If they fail to expand now you have a fragile round nose bullet.

All bullets have the potential to over penetrate. I concerned about not getting enough penetration.

zzclancy said:

FMJ 100% reliable.

Hollow points are fragile bullets. If they fail to expand now you have a fragile round nose bullet.

All bullets have the potential to over penetrate. I concerned about not getting enough penetration.

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In the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout, the main bad guy (Platt) was shot by one of the agents (Dove), whom he later killed. Dove's shot penetrated to within an inch of Platt's heart. IIRC, the FBI was using HP rounds. Maybe if it had been a hardball or a .45 instead of a 9MM, that extra inch would have been covered and the shootout would have ended with two bad guys dead. Not two FBI agents and two bad guys dead. This is why the FBI tried to go to 10MM.

memtb said:

What type of material were they shot into? Also, even “if” a JHP occasionally fail to expand, the round nose FMJ....is guaranteed “not” to expand!

If I am hunting (game not people) I use wide metplat, hard cast bullets only. If I use the handgun for personal defense (humans).... I use JHP’s. That said, if the assailant were a 300+ pound individual wearing heavy denim clothing and a nice thick leather vest....the wide metplat, hard cast bullet would be quite desirable! Just not a round nose bullet! memtb

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Some soft and some hard, Ballistic gelatin to the dirt of the butts, A solid may not expand, but it sure penetrates a lot better. Check to see what big game hunters in Africa use on true dangerous game.

lrrifleman said:

Jon651, back when I was in ROTC, my instructors focused on how FMJ was mandated by the Geneva Conventions (Accords?), then proceeded to explain how the objective of war was not to kill, but to injure as many of the enemy as possible. (A wounded soldier takes three or more soldiers out of the fight, but a dead soldier takes only one out of the fight.)

That said, in a civilian scenario, the key to any gunfight is making your shots count. Chances are good that a person may miss more than they connect with the threat. While over penetration is a concern, a miss with FMJ can ricochet and be a greater threat. HP ammo can have two benefits. First, if you hit the threat, the round could expand and increase the wound channel. Second, if you miss the threat, the HP stands a greater likelihood of flattening when it hits something hard, which reduces the risk of a ricochet.

If you reload, you can actually purchase bullets similar to your expensive carry ammo and replicate it for practice sessions. Warning: never load carry ammo in your EDC and start carrying it without thoroughly testing it for reliable functioning. Especially some of the earlier production 1911s won't reliably feed hollow points without "throating" the feed ramp.

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One more time;


It was not and never was the Geneva Convention,


It was the Hague Convention and the USA did not sign it,

Have never shot any living thing except animals. Have never found a lack of penetration to be a good thing. Have not found expansion to be a bad thing. Long time ago, after not getting the results I wanted w/ lighter caliber rifle, I got myself a .30-06 and started using pointed soft-point bullets ... usually 150 grain. Now, 38 years later, Ive not ever had a single animal ever get up after I shot them with that load. I've used hand loaded 165 gr. bullets, 180 gr. bullets, and factory loaded 150 gr. bullets. All of them penetrated completely. Only one 165 gr. bullet was ever recovered ... under the skin on the opposite side of a buck killed by a raking shot from the right rear quarter. I've fired 150 gr. bullets in raking shots that punched in from in front of the left rear hip and exited the right shoulder. Penetration is never a bad thing.

Now, if the sad day ever comes when I must use a handgun in self-defense, knowing that it will be far more stressful than jump shooting bucks, etc., I will expect complete penetration regardless of the angle firing required simply because I've shot my various pistols enough to know that any of them ... .38/.357, 9mm, .45ACP ... any of them are sufficiently powerful to completely penetrate and exit when fired from the normal distances I might encounter in my home. How do I know this? I've shot a pile of ammo in my pistols. And, I've paid attention to the various tests conducted by Paul Harrell and Lucky Gunner. If ever I have to defend my self/family, I will have to act to stop the threat. No matter what gun or caliber or round being used, protecting myself/family by acting to stop that threat will have to be the first concern.

Disclaimer. The preceding has been brought to you courtesy of my first mug of Death Wish Coffee. After my second mug, I might see things differently. Sincerely. bruce.

shocker said:

This video is instructive.
Dr Andreas Grabinsky Lecture on Gunshot Wounds - YouTube

Based on it, 9 mm FMJ for me.

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I'm assuming you are basing that on the inadequate penetration discussed around the 17 minute mark.

That isn't an argument for a 9mm FMJ - as he readily admitted that hollow points are far more effective earlier in the video.

It is however an argument for using an effective hollow point that will penetrate at least 12".

Back in the day when the 9mm Luger round first started being used in police service it had a horrible record in the field, with assailants being shot multiple times and not being stopped. Officers died because of it.

The over penetration also increases the potential for an innocent bystander to be shot. If that happens in an officer involved shoot, the city, state or federal government and their attorneys handle it all. HOwever, police departments still use hollow points to reduce the risk of over penetration for obvious reasons.

In contrast, if you as an armed citizen use an FMJ that passes through the assailant and wounds or kills an innocent bystander you will be both criminally and civilly liable.

You need to seriously rethink that really bad choice you've made.

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*IF* your handgun won't fire a particular hollow point round with near 100% reliability (which I personally consider to be no malfunctions in 200 rounds, using all the magazines I intend to carry), and you can't find a hollow point that will feed reliably, then - and only then - does an FMJ make sense.

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I agree that hollow points may not perform 100% as intended. However, when a well designed hollow point launched at it's proper velocity fails, it virtually always fails because the hollow cavity is plugged and it fails to expand. And when that happens it functions just like an FMJ.

In other words if a particular hollow point in your gun fails to expand (almost always due to inadequate velocity, and often in combination with heavy clothing that plugs the hollow cavity) 60% of the time, it's still going to give you superior performance 40% of the time, and the other 60% it will be no worse than an FMJ. There is literally no downside.

Way back in the day (1970s) there were issues with hollow points designed to rapidly expand and dump energy. Some of those would badly under penetrate, and officers died because of it.

They no longer design them that way but there are still some loads out there where the bullet it too soft and/or the velocity it too high where the hollow point will over expand or prematurely expand and then under penetrate. The solution is simple, just do some research and avoid those hollow point loads that under penetrate.

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Similarly there are some marginal cartridges (.32 ACP, and .380 ACP in particular where there isn't much energy to get both expansion and sufficient penetration.

Velocity is also an issue as both those rounds are commonly found in short barreled handguns. The problem is that those cartridge also suffer far more velocity in a short barrel than occurs with the 9mm Luger in a short barrel.

If you shoot a .32 ACP or a .380 ACP, your bullet choices are basically the 60 grain XTP in .32 ACP or the 90 gr XTP in the .380 ACP in a load and in a barrel length that launches it at a minimum of 1000 fps, and 1050 fps is better. That generally means a minimum barrel length of 3.5" and 3.9" is better.

So if you are shooting a short barrel .380 ACP or .32 ACP, an FMJ *might* be a better choice. Personally, I'll still pick a hollow point that will expand at a lower velocity down around 950-975 fps and accept the slightly reduced penetration of around 10" over an FMJ at the same velocity.

There is NO good argument for round nose ammo for defense unless it's absolutely all you have. Unbelievable how many uninformed comments are floating around. Try watching a few videos on how ball ammo penetrates drywall walls and other barriers in homes. Not to mention how inferior punching small holes in a threat is compared to hollow points, not even starting the dangers of over penetration...

These days, you will probably have to use whatever you can find.

Under normal circumstances, I use ball ammo, either FMJ or hard cast lead (my reloaded ammo) for the majority of my practice as ball ammo is cheaper than hollow point. Factory hollow point loads for defense and a little practice for sight in and familiarization. My practice ammo is always the same bullet weight and velocity as my defense ammo.

Doesn't anyone use the search feature? It's hard to find a fresh spot on the dead horse to whack, but here goes.

Our purpose in defensive shooting is to stop the felonious assault. Assuming equal shot placement, the JHP/HP will tend to stop the assault faster, requiring less rounds and also making the survival of the assailant somewhat more likely. Regardless of what's used, short of a CNS hit, the assailant is likely to be able to carry on for 10-15 seconds, even if they have an fatal wound. Be prepared.

BTW, on another thread on this same subject, there's a video of ball & JHP ammo being fired to demonstrate respective penetration.

While failures of modern bullet designs to function as designed are known, they're rare. The stuff made now is much better than the stuff made decades ago. However, old ammo may be more prone to failure than fresh stuff. IIRC, lead gets at least somewhat harder as it ages.

Finally, given quality ammo, whether it's factory or home brew, there's no practical difference in recoil, trajectory or point of impact between a JHP/HP bullet and a non-expanding bullet of the same weight and approximate velocity. Heck, some of the factories are making a big deal out of producing training ammo with the same bullet weight & velocity as their defensive/duty ammo.

Rpg said:

The fundamental issue is how much damage the projectile does to the target.

The good old 45acp makes a much bigger hole (and wound canal) than a 9mm. The math works out that increases in diameter results in a three fold increase in the volume of the wound canal.

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That's something I've never understood when people say a 9mm is as effective as a 40 S&W.

Heard many say that the 9mm defense ammo is better. On the local buy trade site, many ad's will have no 40's considered as trade. Seems everyone hates 40 S&W now.

I have Ranger T in both 9mm and 40.

9mm
147gr
Velocity 967 at 25 yards

40 S&W
180gr
Velocity 977 at 25 yards.

Wouldn't wanna get shot with either, but if I had a choice I think I'd pick the 9mm.

Ranger T 9mm on the left, 40 on the right.

Remington Golden Sabers...

..., Federal HSTs and Speer Gold Dots all have pretty substantial sized openings and I like that. They get penetration and very reliable expansion.

An FMJ bullet is almost certainly going to over penetrate and have enough energy to kill someone behind the target.

I just read about a guy who says he likes FMJ because all he has to do is hit them in the spine and it's a sure stop Apparently he was shot with HPs and survived because they DIDN'T hit his spine, but was able to make this shot to defend himself. I told him that if I could reliably hit a 2" wide stripe against their back from any angle, I'd do the same. I can reliably hit center of mass, but I'm not so sure about being able to reliably make a 'spine shot' under duress.

Oh, see Paul Harrell kill two meat targets at once with FMJs from both a .380 and a 9mm.

The first year NYPD switched to 9mm they used 10 round magazines and Nato milspec ball. That year they had three shoot-thrus of bad guys that I know of resulting in one badly injured cop and one dead and one injured bystander. They then switched to JHP rounds (which their firearms unit told them they should have been using all along) and full standard capacity magazines.

Certain units in the US military that "don't exist" have been using hollow points for a long time.

And regular military units will be fielding hollow points with the new military P320 Sigs if I recall correctly.

Racer X said:

And certain units in the US military that "don't exist" have been using hollow points for a long time too.

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I can't remember the exact terminology, but terrorists weren't considered "legitimate combatants" based on the Hague Conventions (the US didn't sign it, but for the most part we followed the guidelines on ammo) since they didn't represent a recognized country, if I'm not mistaken.

Rpg said:

The good old 45acp makes a much bigger hole (and wound canal) than a 9mm. The math works out that increases in diameter results in a three fold increase in the volume of the wound canal.

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Exactly how does that math work?

Area is proportional to diameter squared. A 9mm is .354 and a 45 is .452 so the 45 has 63% greater diameter. With both calibers a FMJ is probably going to a complete pass through so the length of the would canal is going to be 100% in both cases. So assuming no expansion the 45 wound canal would be 63% larger. A 40 wound canal would be 27% larger. Larger yes, but not 200% larger.