Illinois "Fanny Pack" Issue, Discussion

Hello all,

I've been doing a good bit of research on this issue over the last couple of weeks. I'm here in IL, where as you know, we are not permitted to concealed carry at all. It appears, however, that a lot of people are carrying their guns in "fanny packs" or other enclosed cases (anything made for gun carry that buckles, zips, etc) due to some seemingly very clear language in the state laws.

The written law states that an individual can carry a firearm "anywhere in their vehicle or on their
person as long as the firearm is unloaded and
enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box,
shipping box, or other container."

It goes on to state that firearms can be transported as long as they are
1. Unloaded and,
2. Enclosed in a case, and
3. By persons who have a valid FOID card.

They define a "case" as anything designed to house a gun or bow that can be completely closed with a zipper, buckle, tie, etc.

Basically, the language would seemingly mean that as long as the mag is not in the gun (gun and mag are separated), and the gun is inside something that closes and is made for carry. A key here would seem to be that the written law makes NO mention of any criteria for restriction to carry to and from a destination, shooting range, or any such detail. More and more people are doing this, and I'm unable to find any reports of arrests or issues.

I'm a very responsible and cautious individual - I am not considering buying a case and carrying tomorrow. I am exploring the issue to see what's what, and if it is something worth thinking about. If it is in fact a legal way to carry and defend myself/family...

Here are links to 2 documents put out by the state:
http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/1-154.pdf
http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/transgun0-000.pdf

I'd be curious and interested to know what the good folks here on the forum think. Any Illinoisians here that might care to weigh-in, share experiences? Would especially crave the input of any LEOs from IL or anywhere, for that matter.

Thank you all ahead of time for your feedback. Hopefully will lead to a productive discussion.

Dan

Dan: A related actual court case was completed in Arizona about 10 years ago. The issue was whether or not a "Fanny/Belly" pack originally built to carry a firearm was in fact a visible holster or not. It was ruled to be a holster and therefore any firearm carried in a fanny/belly pack was NOT concealed. You might have someone look it up to see if the precedent helps your case or not. ....... Big Cholla

Thanks Big Cholla. I understand the fine line here between case and holster. Maybe even an actual "holster" that completely closes then? And unloaded? At the very least, I should be able to keep my gun in a case in the car when driving right? Like in the glove compartment?

If there hasn't been a case go through the courts regarding this, then there isn't anyone out here that can give an answer. Only you can decide if you are willing to be the first test case.

Understood... Would still be curious to know if anyone has talked with enforcement about it or done it, that's all.

On one of the sites concerning concealed carry in Illinois. They did refer to a number of cases where people where charged for illegal use of a handgun, and were let off. In these case the judges were very literal and did not concern themselves with intent but rather a very literal reading of the law. The guns were in a "case" and then either stored in a glove box or even in a purse. In these cases the gun was unloaded and in a "case". If you read the statute it states

(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner’s identification Card;

Even though these people had their cases dismissed it does not inspire me to push my luck. What I did learn though is that it has to be unloaded and in a case, but the ammo can also be in the case with it, and no where did it say it has to be in the trunk of your car when you are transporting it.

I know so many good people in Illinois, people that love firearms and freedom, I just can't understand how you all tolerate some of your laws and politicians. How does this happen?

Out
West

As your neighbor to the north I too have wondered what I could get away with interms of what qualifies as a case. Can I have my revolver in a fanny back with a speed loader that is loaded? Such a slippery deal. What is considered properly cased and what is considered concealed? Didn't that Hamdi case in milwaukee get thrown out. I think they said he was concealing because he had a loaded gun in a box with a towel on top. My way of thinking the case better be manufactured exclusively for the purpose of transporting a firearm. The vagueness of it is kinda disgusting to me.
Sometimes I'm tempted to just drive around all the time with a gun in the car just like I would if I was headed to the range. Also I would have a holster so in case something weird went down you could transition from legal transportation of a firearm to legal open carry.
God forbid something did happen. I'm sure I'd be arrested for something and then hope to have the charges thrown out.

Out West: A lot of good people and good groups have been pushing and pushing for years, and aren't willing to simply move or let it go. A concealed carry law (while I still believe this year to be too soon and unrealistic) is as promising as it has ever been and is looking hopeful in the near future.

"I just can't understand how you all tolerate some of your laws and politicians. How does this happen?"

I would say that everyone who is working hard to push for concealed carry (advocate groups, a few good political folks, etc.) is NOT tolerating it, but working for change. The gun control folks in Chicago hold a lot of power - that's a reality. If there is something else we can be doing to show intolerance, I'd be open. Progress is better than regress...

Dinkytheman: Thanks for the thoughts. It does seem like the language, at the very least, would allow for a gun case in the car whenever driving (as if you were headed to the range as you said - gun unloaded, mag at the ready).

I'm unable to find any reports of arrests or issues.

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You're not looking hard enough. There have been a number of people arrested for trying to "finesse" the ban on concealed carry.
IL is famous for arresting people and then dropping the charges after you've spent a bundle on lawyers. I lived there for 10 years and still travel through. My handgun is unloaded, cased, and stored, not strapped to my waist when I go through IL.

At the very least, I think you have to expect to be arrested and have to hire a lawyer, even if you are never convicted of anything.
I know of a competitor who had his gun confiscated and held for a few weeks (until he hired a lawyer) because his case "did not completely enclose the unloaded gun." It was unzipped.

I live in Illinois and this is a subject we hope will go away this year with a real CCW law. As far as what we have now the fanny pack is complicated because it is accepted differently in different parts of the state. I know people who have done this for years and never had a problem, other people have been arrested and spent money time and some time in jail. As a general rule the closer you are to Chicago the more the chance you will be arrested. All the cases I am familiar with have had the charges dropped before trial so no president has been set
My county Sheriff considers it illegal and a poor subistute for legal CCW. So you don't get the wrong impression about him, he is not anti gun or anti carry. In fact he was one of our featured speakers at a "right to carry" town hall meeting last year. I have non-resident CCW permits and carry anytime I am out of state where legal I carry. I have carried in a fanny pack but on a very limited basis. Bottom line, I don't "believe" you would ever be convicted of it but don't do it if you are not prepared for the hassle of your life. A much better idea is to do all you can to support Illinois HB148. Check out


IllinoisCarry.com

This is the most up to date place to find out what is happening with the fight for CCW in Illinois. Jim.

I am sorry but if I ran into you I would give you a nice set of shinny handcuffs to wear.

luis said:

I am sorry but if I ran into you I would give you a nice set of shinny handcuffs to wear.

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This reminds me of a man named John Horstman who was arrested and screwed around like I mentioned. He ended up with a $50,000 settlement over the ordeal. Jim.

sctman800 said:

This reminds me of a man named John Horstman who was arrested and screwed around like I mentioned. He ended up with a $50,000 settlement over the ordeal. Jim.

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That only happened because local LEOs did not follow procedure. Illinois is a very interesting state with very complex laws. Get caught in some parts of the state with an EMPTY magazine and no gun of more than 10 rounds and you will be a felon.

Some communities have passed laws making it illegal to carry an empty magazine in parks, nature preserves and even public side walks.

Many local politicos have used these laws as a way of gun control. In central Illinois you cannot leave an empty weapon on magazine in your vehicle if it is parked at any municipal parking lot. Vehicles in public lots are subject to search WITHOUT warrent.

Now I believe that law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry guns but stupid actions now that Illinois is so close to passing CCW will only hurt.

"Discussion" on an internet list is irrelevant. Someone who doesn't know yet renders their personal opinion is an invitation to someone spending time in jail awaiting bond and spending a lot of their hard earned money defending themselves. If you want to "discuss" the legality of the method then your discussion should be with one of the 102 state's attorneys in IL and not with an anonymous group which many have no legal training nor experience.
If you decide to fanny pack carry then do so at your own caution.
The fanny pack carry became a popular discussion in 2001. Some gun groups were telling everyone who would listen that it was 100% legal. The problem was that group had not contacted either the IL AG or any other person of competent legal authority. They had one of their members interpret what he thought the law said and then they were telling everyone to do it. Pretty reckless and irresponsible conduct for that group particularly since they weren't going to be the ones possibility sitting in jail or paying all the money to represent themselves. They were looking for a sacrificial lamb for their cause and hoping some poor schmuck would unwittingly be their cause.
Anyway, in 2001 after this group began their campaign my agency began receiving calls on a daily basis from the public wanting to know if fanny pack carry was legal. We also received calls from other police depts wanting to know the same answer. We contacted the IL AG who was Jim Ryan. Ryan was running for governor at the time. The response we got from the IL AG was they would not give an opinion and would leave the interpretation up to each of the 102 state's attorneys in each county.
We then contacted each of the 102 state's attorneys for their opinions. We didn't get 102 different answers but almost. Generally their responses fell into 3 different interpretations. Some said they believed fanny pack carry was legal and they would not charge. Some said they believed fanny pack carry was illegal and they would charge. But the majority gave the answer that they would look at each incident on a case by case basis and then decide to charge or not. What most state's attorneys said was for the police to seize the firearm, submit a report and then the SA would decide whether to charge.
Most of the responses were not much help to the public or LE. What it meant was you could be in one county where the SA would not charge, cross the road into another county where the SA would charge, and then cross into a 3rd county and you wouldn't know if you were being charged and you'd have to wait to know 18 or 36 months depending if the SA was going to charge felony, misdemeanor, or nothing.
We did that survey 10 years ago and we have not re-done the survey since it was generally useless. Since that time the IL AG has changed and so have many of the SAs. However, I'd venture a guess that if the survey was re-done today that we'd get pretty much the same results. Some counties would no doubt change from one side to the other but I think more would take the opinion of "wait and see". Again, not much help to anyone, either public or LEOs.
So it's going to depend on each individual SA. Your decision. But the saying is every decision has consequences. Are you really prepared for the consequences? Do you really know the consequences? To those who say the charges might be dismissed so not a really big deal are naive and do not have any idea as to consequences. The consequences are you could be arrested, taken to jail, await in jail for a few days until a judge sets bond, have to come up with $XXXX before you can leave jail, have to pay for an attorney, take time off from your job to go to countless court hearings, motions and then the trial. Figure all those costs. At least several thousands of dollars. You're out the money and time even if charges are ultimated dropped, reduced, or you prevail at trial.

dnielson said:

Dinkytheman: Thanks for the thoughts. It does seem like the language, at the very least, would allow for a gun case in the car whenever driving (as if you were headed to the range as you said - gun unloaded, mag at the ready).

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I would be very careful about that. If I recall correctly, gun unloaded a loaded mag at the ready constitutes "LOADED" in some areas. You may well get off under the law but be prepared to be arrested and have to pay legal costs.

sceva said:

I would be very careful about that. If I recall correctly, gun unloaded a loaded mag at the ready constitutes "LOADED" in some areas. You may well get off under the law but be prepared to be arrested and have to pay legal costs.

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Nope. Case law and AG's written opinion already has clarified that issue long ago. A loaded mag may legally be carried in the same case as the unloaded firearm. However, a loaded mag cannot be inserted into the firearm.
An unloaded mag can be in the firearm.
There is no legal requirement that the mag need be in a case.
Here are some of the common questions (FAQ) that we received.
Firearm Owner's Frequently Asked Questions

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughts. Comes down to the fact that the laws are vague and flawed here in IL, and it's not worth messing with them. Some LEOs might applaud you, while Luis will "give me a nice set of shiny handcuffs to wear" (cute by the way). I'm not going to carry in a fanny pack - just wanted to hear some thoughts. Everyone can take a hot bath and breathe easy.

I have done some research on the cases, and it clearly is too much trouble to be worth it, even if acquitted. SCTman - I'm with you 100%. I've been following 148 very closely, and it clearly is more promising that ever. Though I think this year would be too quick, support and persistence will be always important.

Here's to progress.

dnielson said:

Hello all,

I've been doing a good bit of research on this issue over the last couple of weeks. I'm here in IL, where as you know, we are not permitted to concealed carry at all. It appears, however, that a lot of people are carrying their guns in "fanny packs" or other enclosed cases (anything made for gun carry that buckles, zips, etc) due to some seemingly very clear language in the state laws.

The written law states that an individual can carry a firearm "anywhere in their vehicle or on their
person as long as the firearm is unloaded and
enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box,
shipping box, or other container."

It goes on to state that firearms can be transported as long as they are
1. Unloaded and,
2. Enclosed in a case, and
3. By persons who have a valid FOID card.

They define a "case" as anything designed to house a gun or bow that can be completely closed with a zipper, buckle, tie, etc.

Basically, the language would seemingly mean that as long as the mag is not in the gun (gun and mag are separated), and the gun is inside something that closes and is made for carry. A key here would seem to be that the written law makes NO mention of any criteria for restriction to carry to and from a destination, shooting range, or any such detail. More and more people are doing this, and I'm unable to find any reports of arrests or issues.

I'm a very responsible and cautious individual - I am not considering buying a case and carrying tomorrow. I am exploring the issue to see what's what, and if it is something worth thinking about. If it is in fact a legal way to carry and defend myself/family...

Here are links to 2 documents put out by the state:
http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/1-154.pdf
http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/transgun0-000.pdf

I'd be curious and interested to know what the good folks here on the forum think. Any Illinoisians here that might care to weigh-in, share experiences? Would especially crave the input of any LEOs from IL or anywhere, for that matter.

Thank you all ahead of time for your feedback. Hopefully will lead to a productive discussion.

Dan

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Here is the Link to a site on what you need to know. Also a PDF file to print and carry with you encase an officer doesn't know your rights. This way if you are arrested after showing him or her the letter and a foid card. You can then sure the officer, according to this site. I printed 2 copies
Illinois Carry | Conceal Carry