Is there something in the water in Texas?....

FTG-05 said:

Not only did you miss the part about OC-handguns being illegal in TX, but a CCP should not be required as part of the 2nd amendment!

What is so hard to understand:

".... the right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

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If you think you can roll "gun laws" back to 1776, 1791 or even the 1880s.....I truly wish you well.... but I don't think that is going to happen.

As the 1st Amendment doesn't give you the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater...

Someone convicted of one or more violent felonies should not have his "right to carry a firearm infringed"?

I don't think we will ever again see 12- 16 year olds taking guns to school so they can hunt on the way home...

I'm pretty sure that I don't want every homeless person on the streets of Pittsburgh carrying a concealed handgun.....let alone the ones who hear voices telling them to ..................

Are you saying; I shouldn't be allowed to prohibit someone from bringing a loaded AR-15 into my home when I invite them to a BBQ...because he/she has a 2nd Amendment "right" ? Where does his right end and my right to enjoy my property rights begin?

I don't think you will ever be able to ( hopefully never feel the need to) mount a Browning M2 or .30 cal. on the back of your jeep........ LOL



IIRC the prohibition on open carry started in western towns in the late 1800s........

in eastern cities there seemed to be a natural transition to discreet concealed carry (Philadelphia Derringer, S&W bicycle guns, Browning's .25s and .32 cal. pocket pistols); which IMHO; in a "modern urban environment" is the way I feel it should be done.

Even rights are subject to reasonable rules and regulation.... we've spent 40 years debating what is "reasonable"...... with the proliferation of "shall issue" rulings and the DC and Chicago cases...... we seem to at least be making progress if not winning......

If you read my post.... what I was trying to express......Is that I did not believe the protest tactic of openly carrying semi-auto rifles.... would convince people, opposed to or on the fence about open carry, to rethink their position........ on the open carrying of handguns.

Again I wish you well; I'm glad I'm in Pa. with the "right" to open carry and "shall issue" CC laws......

I don't disagree with the goal of getting open carry in Texas....I only counsel as an interested 3rd party; the optics of this tactic, particularly given the potential media coverage, does not to me, make it seem like a good tactic.

Again good luck

ChattanoogaPhil said:

I see... You aren't doing what you profess others to do, but this is because you don't care about 2A infringement in this case. Sorry Cypher, but if everyone was like you OC would be forever banned.

I just can't understand why the guys who are out there fighting for their rights aren't receptive to being lectured by do-nothing disinterested critics of their cause. How rude of them!

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I see you overlooked the part where I have offered support...

So you support them carrying into a private business, creating a scene, and forcing the business to come out with a no weapons policy vs. following local laws? When the business does that, it not only affects OC, but CC as well. Jack in the Box, Starbucks, Chipotle, Chili's, and Sonic have all made "requests" to not bring firearms into their establishment. While this request may not be a binding notification here in Texas, a mall went as far as posting legal signage to stop CC in the mall after one of these guys decided that strolling through the mall with his AR on his back was a good idea.

I was active during the push for CC. While the media ran with the blood in the streets stories, we did not have the negative public image that the OC movement does. We were approachable, and could enter into debate. We did not have videos of us screaming and cussing at law enforcement. We were not asked to leave private businesses. We did not create a divide between gun owners.

When George Lavender, a Texas State rep who has authored the open carry bill and introduced it twice into the Texas legislature is asking you to stand down, as you are affecting his ability to move the bill through, you probably should listen.

When the bill has been brought up twice before in sessions and failed to move out of committee, negative publicity is not going to help it move forward. And that is what these guys do not understand.

cyphertext said:

I see you overlooked the part where I have offered support...

So you support them carrying into a private business, creating a scene, and forcing the business to come out with a no weapons policy vs. following local laws? When the business does that, it not only affects OC, but CC as well. Jack in the Box, Starbucks, Chipotle, Chili's, and Sonic have all made "requests" to not bring firearms into their establishment. While this request may not be a binding notification here in Texas, a mall went as far as posting legal signage to stop CC in the mall after one of these guys decided that strolling through the mall with his AR on his back was a good idea.

I was active during the push for CC. While the media ran with the blood in the streets stories, we did not have the negative public image that the OC movement does. We were approachable, and could enter into debate. We did not have videos of us screaming and cussing at law enforcement. We were not asked to leave private businesses. We did not create a divide between gun owners.

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I'll tell ya what I support. I support the NRA statement specifically to this issue that they have no business criticizing the lawful activities of gun owners. I think others should consider that.

So now you say you've been an active supporter of OC? Nice list of things you did not do. Were these the things you were not doing that lead to the previous failure to pass legislation?

Those who preach to others that they should not do anything to get anyone upset have completely forgotten the past half century of civil rights success stories. The high-minded critics have been consistently wrong. It's a small number of passionate folks who typically lead on these things. This issue isn't different.

Gun rights are typically driven by a small number of passionate folks. Heck, if it were left up to the majority to get off the couch and actually do something none of us could legally carry a gun here in Tenn. Just about 10% of adults in Tenn have a carry permit. About 50% of the population are gun owners. Go figure... So all your talk about how "many in Texas are fine with CC, and couldn't care less about OC of a handgun" rings totally hollow to me and sounds more like someone who is against OC trying to bolster an argument of criticisms of those who are fighting for OC.

Let's take a different approach, look at it by the numbers...

Texas has a population of 26.06 Million.

Per recent polls, it is estimated that between 35% to 44% of those folks own at least one firearm. Lets make it easy and call it 40%. That is 10.42 Million firearm owners.

Of those 10.42 Million firearm owners, 708,048 are active CHL holders, or 7%.

Of those 10.42 Million, OCT has 22,000 members,(I'll bump it up to 25,000 just in case they have added a few since the number was published)... or 0.002%

So, based on these numbers, it doesn't appear that carry rights in general are all that important to Texas gun owners, but with only .002% of gun owners actively joining the OCT movement, why would anyone expect TSRA to waste resources and cycles to actively push this?

It appears to me that Texas overall is fairly happy with our current state of affairs. And as a Texas voter, I have more say in this than the gentleman from Tennessee who referred to me as a "do-nothing disinterested critic".

Yawn...

Ok I got it. You supported OC carry before you didn't support it.

ChattanoogaPhil said:

I'll tell ya what I support. I support the NRA statement specifically to this issue that they have no business criticizing the lawful activities of gun owners. I think others should consider that.

So now you say you've been an active supporter of OC? Nice list of things you did not do. Were these the things you were not doing that lead to the previous failure to pass legislation?

Those who preach to others that they should not do anything to get anyone upset have completely forgotten the past half century of civil rights success stories. The high-minded critics have been consistently wrong. It's a small number of passionate folks who typically lead on these things. This issue isn't different.

Gun rights are typically driven by a small number of passionate folks. Heck, if it were left up to the majority to get off the couch and actually do something none of us could legally carry a gun here in Tenn. Just a small fraction of folks have a carry license. Most don't care at all. So all your talk about how 'many in Texas are fine with CC, and couldn't care less about OC of a handgun" rings totally hollow to me and sounds more like someone who is against OC trying to bolster an argument of criticisms of those who are fighting for OC.

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Phil, I didn't say I was active... I said I have offered support, if they would change some of their tactics. I was told to go to hell, called names, my service to my country questioned...

They are unwilling to listen to anyone, the rep that wrote the bill included.

So yes, you could say that I am not a fan of the OCT group here. I am not saying to do nothing, but that there is an appropriate way to demonstrate. Meeting in the parking lot of a restaurant armed, where the Mad Moms are meeting inside, is not a good idea. It was seen as negative, and they were labeled as being bullies. Personally, I feel that everyone of them who were involved in that incident should have been arrested for disorderly conduct. They very much were carrying at that particular time and place knowing that they were going to cause alarm and upset the Mad Moms... poor tactics and negative publicity.

As far as supporting the legislation, I didn't even know it was on the map in 2011. In 2013, TSRA focused on other issues, such as campus carry. When they spoke with legislators, they were told that the legislators were not hearing from constituents asking to pass this bill, so that let it die in committee mostly from the actions of a rep from Houston. I did contact my rep and asked him to support the bill, and encouraged others to do the same.

However, I am guessing that you are not all that familiar with Texas politics. It took over 20 years to pass CC in this state, with the first bill in 1983, and finally passing in 1995. The difference being that in 1993, CC had majority support and passed the following session. Open Carry of a handgun does not have majority support here.

If you can't understand that when the author of the bill is telling you that while what you are doing is legal, but it is making it more difficult for him to gain support, and is jeopardizing it passing, I don't know what to tell you.

ChattanoogaPhil said:

Yawn...

Ok I got it. You supported OC carry before you didn't support it.

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No, you don't get it. I support open carry. I do not support the actions and tactics of these groups. While they are trying to further the cause, the negative publicity does not win the hearts and minds of the everyday public. It makes Susie Soccer Mom call her rep and tell them to pass a law to outlaw this practice.

Let me say I favor the carrying of side arms by mature responsible folks world wide.
Whenever and wherever they so choose.

Why, I my own self, I carry from time to time.
I never caused any folks alarm.......

But, I do believe, I have skert a few criminals,
one or two so badly theys ran out the back doors,
er jump'd outta a window, of a joint er two.



Get ur self a fancy rig and get er broke it........
It's a coming!

And Boys, I can see it from here!







.

cyphertext said:

No, you don't get it. I support open carry.

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Really?

Is the below your idea of a battle cry of support for OC?

cyphertext said:

So, based on these numbers, it doesn't appear that carry rights in general are all that important to Texas gun owners, but with only .002% of gun owners actively joining the OCT movement, why would anyone expect TSRA to waste resources and cycles to actively push this?

It appears to me that Texas overall is fairly happy with our current state of affairs.

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With all due respect, that doesn't sound like anyone who supports OC or is in anyway trying to make the case for OC. It sounds more like tactics of the anti-gun left who say they support gun ownership then launch in the opposite direction.

Why should gun rights groups waste their time? Well that certainly doesn't sound like something I would expect to hear from an OC supporter.

Last I read the NRA and Texas gun rights groups were reported to be leaning toward the idea that OC had a good chance of passing. Are they wrong and just wasting their time?

You support OC. I got it.
Please pardon my misinterpretations of your postings.

ChattanoogaPhil said:

Really?

Is the below your idea of a battle cry of support for OC?



With all due respect, that doesn't sound like anyone who supports OC or is in anyway trying to make the case for OC. It sounds more like tactics of the anti-gun left who say they support gun ownership then launch in the opposite direction.

Why should gun rights groups waste their time? Well that certainly doesn't sound like something I would expect to hear from an OC supporter.

Last I read the NRA and Texas gun rights groups were reported to be leaning toward the idea that OC had a good chance of passing.

I got it.

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So one can not be in favor of something, but realize that it is a minor issue when compared to other gun right issues in the state?

That was in response to you and others who say that the NRA and the TSRA are doing nothing... They have limited resources. In 2011, their major focus was on keeping employers from prohibiting employees from storing their firearms in their cars while parked in the company parking lot. Last year they focused on college campus carry, and improving CHL by reducing the class time for licenses, and keeping you from being prosecuted for brandishing if you accidentally expose your firearm.

You have stated in another post that your state has open carry, but nobody does it... This is the same thing I experienced while living in New Mexico.

So what would you focus on, something that a large majority of your membership is in favor of, or something that is barely a mouse fart?

They do feel it has a good chance of passing, if the radical OC groups would knock off the BS. But it is going to take folks calling their reps, not being the headline on the 6 o'clock news because another private business is asking you to leave the guns at home.

Handguns are made for killing people, period. The aura surrounding a handgun is death and finality to most. I'm not talking about us here, we're gun loving shooters. Rights aside, why on God's green earth would someone want to display their gun in a society where most people perceive this. I CC but am against OC.

3dots said:

Handguns are made for killing people, period.

Some people deserve a nudge off this mortal coil

The aura surrounding a handgun is death and finality to most. I'm not talking about us here, we're gun loving shooters. Rights aside, why on God's green earth would someone want to display their gun in a society where most people perceive this. I CC but am against OC.

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No one wants to force you to OC, it should be a choice.

Sorry Cypher, I don't know who you're trying to convince that you support OC, yourself? But you say you do and that's enough for me. But understand the content of your postings do not come across as supportive, not in the least.

Cheers

ChattanoogaPhil said:

Sorry Cypher, I don't know who you're trying to convince that you support OC, yourself? But you say you do and that's enough for me. But understand the content of your postings do not come across as supportive, not in the least.

Cheers

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Let me put it this way... if it were put on a ballot for a vote, I would vote yes. I will call my Representative and Senator and ask them to support the legislation next year when it comes up again.

If asked in a public opinion poll if I agree with the tactics used by Open Carry Texas, I would say no.

If asked if I think OCT represents gun owners in a positive light, I would say no.

If asked if I am happy with the focus of the Texas State Rifle Association, and if they are doing good, representing my issues in the Texas legislature, I would say yes.

Open carry is a concept whose time has actually passed. In a country of 350 million people the idea of openly carrying handguns, or any firearms, at least insofar as the population centers are concerned, is patently ridiculous. It doesn't matter if Texas is one of 4 states to ban it or if Vermont is one of 46 states to either outright allow it or to allow it by having no specific ban on it. As a general rule in beautiful downtown WHEREVER it's a stupid plan to do it so it is a parallel stupid plan to go around advocating it and wasting everyone's time with it.

As a matter of fact, one of the quaint secondary issues in this matter was the fact that openly carrying long arms was always permissible in Texas and every pickup truck had a gun rack in the back window accordingly. That time, too, has passed. Whether it's anti-gun rhetoric or, more than likely, the high incidence of theft, carrying your hunting long arm in the rear window of your truck has, for the most part, except maybe during hunting season, and then basically only in the "country", disappeared as a normal course of events in Texas. It just isn't done.

That's the real world, friends. You carry guns concealed, nobody really notices or cares. Not in Texas, anyway. You openly flaunt them? Citizens get upset, they call police, etc.

REAL WORLD.

OTOH, I am totally unopposed to the concept. I'd like to see it pass. Just because. And because it's our right.

But would I do it? Not a chance. Nobody needs to know my business and whether I am armed or not. I'd just like to know I could do it if I wanted to.

More to the point, speaking of actually doing it - if I have a gun in a belt holster, I'd love to be able to take my jacket off when I'm driving and not be concerned that the gun is suddenly visible. So, as noted, I totally support the law being changed. I'm just essentially opposed to doing it except in very limited circumstances.

***GRJ***

A man should be able to choose, at his own discretion,
to what extent of 'open carry' that fits his own life style.

I too, would like to be able to exit my vehicle and fill my
tank with gas or just stop at the mail box with out having to put on my sport coat or jacket on....

It has been my experience that criminals hide their gats...

Honest, law bidding folks shouldn't have to be ashamed or be required by the state to hide their personal property like some common criminal.

My goodness this is the 21 century, can't we just get
passed the oppressive laws of the reconstruction era of the post civil war times.

Why we, as bearers of arms for the freedom of the state and the lawful defense of one's family and self, be dictated to by those that seek to, to continue to oppress her citizens.

Those in Austin must surely know the truth....

The straight ways is always the hardest.
The easy way, like water, takes the path of least resistance.

So it is with life, the land and politics...
That is why we end up with crooked rivers and crooked men.




God Bless Texas

Hook em Horns


.

ISCS Yoda said:

Open carry is a concept whose time has actually passed. In a country of 350 million people the idea of openly carrying handguns, or any firearms, at least insofar as the population centers are concerned, is patently ridiculous. It doesn't matter if Texas is one of 4 states to ban it or if Vermont is one of 46 states to either outright allow it or to allow it by having no specific ban on it. As a general rule in beautiful downtown WHEREVER it's a stupid plan to do it so it is a parallel stupid plan to go around advocating it and wasting everyone's time with it.

As a matter of fact, one of the quaint secondary issues in this matter was the fact that openly carrying long arms was always permissible in Texas and every pickup truck had a gun rack in the back window accordingly. That time, too, has passed. Whether it's anti-gun rhetoric or, more than likely, the high incidence of theft, carrying your hunting long arm in the rear window of your truck has, for the most part, except maybe during hunting season, and then basically only in the "country", disappeared as a normal course of events in Texas. It just isn't done.

That's the real world, friends. You carry guns concealed, nobody really notices or cares. Not in Texas, anyway. You openly flaunt them? Citizens get upset, they call police, etc.

REAL WORLD.

OTOH, I am totally unopposed to the concept. I'd like to see it pass. Just because. And because it's our right.

But would I do it? Not a chance. Nobody needs to know my business and whether I am armed or not. I'd just like to know I could do it if I wanted to.

More to the point, speaking of actually doing it - if I have a gun in a belt holster, I'd love to be able to take my jacket off when I'm driving and not be concerned that the gun is suddenly visible. So, as noted, I totally support the law being changed. I'm just essentially opposed to doing it except in very limited circumstances.

***GRJ***

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Double talk rules the day with this issue. If I thought something was so stupid I sure wouldn't support it. Pretty clear these folks know they're on the outside looking in on the gun Rights arena, and are trying to keep up appearances.

Texas40 said:

Im not a fan of OC or these so called activists (aka idiots). Evennif OC was legal Id still CC why let the bad guys know who is and who isnt packing. Let the find out the hard way.

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"Let the[m] find out the hard way." Itchy trigger finger there, Tex?

3dots said:

Handguns are made for killing people, period. The aura surrounding a handgun is death and finality to most. I'm not talking about us here, we're gun loving shooters. Rights aside, why on God's green earth would someone want to display their gun in a society where most people perceive this. I CC but am against OC.

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Concealed weapon is the tool of the assassin, the criminal who hides his intentions from his potential victims. Open carry is the tool of the honest man who says by carrying his handgun openly that I am not a threat to those who mean me and mine no harm but I am ready to protect myself and others. Why do the police carry openly?

3dots said:

Handguns are made for killing people, period. The aura surrounding a handgun is death and finality to most. I'm not talking about us here, we're gun loving shooters. Rights aside, why on God's green earth would someone want to display their gun in a society where most people perceive this. I CC but am against OC.

Click to expand...

3dots said:

Handguns are made for killing people, period.

The aura surrounding a handgun is death and finality to most. I'm not talking about us here, we're gun loving shooters. Rights aside, why on God's green earth would someone want to display their gun in a society where most people perceive this. I CC but am against OC.

Click to expand...

Really? I've never heard anything so absurd in all my life.

My use of the handgun is quite different....Pleasure, sport, hunting, etc...



Those few folks that I have shot, all lived.

If killing was the goal, rather than stopping a threat of life or limb.....I guess, I'd need a rifle.


I've worn my handgun outside my pants
(the one's with pockets) for more than forty something years.

I have never fighten'd any mothers, children or the elderly.

I guess, it's all how you carry yourself to start with.



May God Bless Texas

Hook em Horns


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