I can't believe how many times these questions keep coming up. If you're that worried about any legal ramifications of your weapon, then leave the darn gun at home and arm yourself with a lawyer. Geez...
Gun Trigger Modifications a No Go According to Article
- Thread starter marathonrunner
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Others here have made good comments, but here are a few more...
Does your trigger change make the pull lighter, or it is the same? You didn't mention this. Quoting the author:
"I don’t believe modifying the trigger without reducing the trigger pull weight will create an issue, because firearms examiners will likely just measure the trigger pull weight, not the quality of the trigger. If it is lighter than factory standard, an issue may arise."
You mention you "hate the stock trigger". Feelings aside, were you able to shoot the gun accurately? If so and you are worried about the legal implications (and the Apex pull is lighter than stock), re-install the factory trigger and practice a lot. Or have a gunsmith smooth out the stock trigger, leaving the pull weight unchanged.
Finally, after reading the article, the author has prudent but generalized information. If this issue concerns you enough, perhaps consulting an attorney local to you who has experience defending clients in self-defense shootings (or joining the organization sponsoring the article and getting a referral) may be in order. Hope this is helpful.
As I and many others have said (many times) if you intended the gun to fire and hit what you were aiming at - there will be no problem associated with the gun... now, if you modify your gun to the point where it has a mind of it's own.... shoot an unintended target and blame it on the gun, etc - you may as well get a lawyer. Just because your state gave you a CCW permit, that in itself does not make you "qualified" to carry. Lots of hotdogs out there carrying guns and it is only a matter of time....
My EDC is and has always been a J frame, I learned to shoot it as it came from the factory. The only modifications are a grip change (or grip adapter) and I prefer not to take on the uphill battle of an overzealous prosecutor, should that come to pass. I've been involved in more than one deadly force encounter during my 30 year LEO days and used my service .38 the way it was issued, save grips or adapters.
dougb1946
Member
hdfinder, was that shooting ruled justified or not? And how did the trigger figure into the decision.
Inquiring minds, ya know
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NM, think I found it: Unintended Shot: The Santibanes Incident | American Handgunner
"Unintentional Discharge" is cited, which we know really means NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.
Bad gun handling is bad gunhandling, period. I do have sympathy for the officer and victim both in this case. Well, maybe not the victim, so much...sounds like he was going for weapons, and it could well have been that another or second into the scenario would have provided a legal justification for a bullet. But, that's not the way it happened...
And the defense against an "unintentional discharge" is to shoot twice, to prove it was deliberate.
It's the DA deemed "not-justified" shooting where the shooter felt he was justified that one has to worry about. It's not a cut-and-dried situation as many think.
If you'll recall, every aspect of the gun, ammo, and manner of its use [loaded and chambered] was brought up by the prosecutor in the Zimmerman case. While it ultimately did not sway the jury, several of them stated they felt he was "guilty of something." Not the jurists' opinions you want if you're the defendant.
southcoast
Member
That Zimmerman verdict was based purely on the fact that the government could not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The jury felt the shooting was justified and everything else became moot. It had zero to do with gun modifications. Again, given the prevalence of firearm modifications over the last century, I challenge the author of this "sponsored"article or anyone else to cite an actual case where the court deemed and upheld a weapon modification as bearing any legal relevance in a justified self defense case.
As mentioned, The prosecutors going after the gun when their case was shaky. What made me laugh was when they said he carried loaded and chambered with the safety off... The PF-9 Has No Safety. That told me they had no case to prove reasonable doubt.
I agree with the others that wrote a justified shoot is a justified shoot, regardless of modifications. If someone thinks modifications will make a difference, Don't modify the Trigger System, Don't install Night Sights, Don't use Grip Tape, Leave it stock as it came from the factory... Or leave it home.
Having written that, my Shield and other pistols are all stock, but NOT because of legal reasons... I feel they shoot just fine the way I bought them. If I didn't like the way the Factory triggers felt, I wouldn't have bought them.
That article is one man's opinion, without providence or support. Two anecdotal mentions of legal issues, without cite or jurisdiction. If you want to consider what he wrote, go ahead, but it's about as binding as anything you read on this forum.
Absolutely!! Its called a DUTY/CARRY Action Enhancement Kit, not a hot rod, bad arse Rambo kit. These threads are dead end and useless.
NC
Grayfox
US Veteran
I've been hearing this stuff for years and have yet to see anybody provide documented proof that gun mods made any difference in the investigation/trial related to a a justified self defense shooting.
If anybody has proof, please post it.
If anybody has proof, please post it.
keithherrington
Member
One Eye Joe got it right
And that's why I don't have anyone do action jobs on my carry guns except the factory (such as on my M&P45), or I buy a factory gun that is more suited to my taste, such as my L-Comp and K-Comp. Hard to go wrong with factory work when it's all said and done.
Keith
And that's why I don't have anyone do action jobs on my carry guns except the factory (such as on my M&P45), or I buy a factory gun that is more suited to my taste, such as my L-Comp and K-Comp. Hard to go wrong with factory work when it's all said and done.
Keith
Rastoff
US Veteran
Logic and reason. Yet, no one can point to a single real case where a gun with a trigger modification was used and that modification was a factor in the "good guy" losing.
It sounds good to leave the gun stock, but it doesn't pass any real logical test. For example, why is an Ed Brown OK to carry in it's stock condition with a 4lb trigger, but a Glock with a trigger modified to 4.5lbs (heavier than the stock Brown) is something to be afraid of in court? See, the logic doesn't pass examination.
Removing a safety, adjusting the trigger, putting Punisher grips on the gun all sound like it might play against you, but it never has in hundreds of years of court cases.
I won't tell you it's either OK or not. Do what you think is best for your own level of risk. Just be sure to post case law here when you find it (which you won't).
It sounds good to leave the gun stock, but it doesn't pass any real logical test. For example, why is an Ed Brown OK to carry in it's stock condition with a 4lb trigger, but a Glock with a trigger modified to 4.5lbs (heavier than the stock Brown) is something to be afraid of in court? See, the logic doesn't pass examination.
Removing a safety, adjusting the trigger, putting Punisher grips on the gun all sound like it might play against you, but it never has in hundreds of years of court cases.
I won't tell you it's either OK or not. Do what you think is best for your own level of risk. Just be sure to post case law here when you find it (which you won't).
Bill_inBouse
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I know one of our several county prosecuting attorneys and have shot with him, and have shot HIS personal carry weapon. Guess what......trigger tuned, aftermarket sights.... sure is nice to be in Arizona where common sense rules.
Yes. If it's a "good shoot," it shouldn't matter what mods are done to your defensive tool. But here's the thing: you don't get to decide what is a good shoot. The DA does. And then, if you're unlucky, 12 strangers get to decide, half of whom were chosen because they are prone to dislike you and everything you believe. You don't get to decide if your case has a racial component. You don't get to decide if or how the media cover it. You don't get to decide if a "witness" surfaces who will give sworn testimony that he saw something he never saw. You don't get to decide if the prosecution produces an expert witness who will say that your trigger job made your gun easier to kill with. To at least half of the jury, that sounds obscenely dangerous: why would any sane person take something that is so dangerous and deadly to begin with and make it even more deadly? All the above complications arose in the Alvarez case. Officer Alvarez was eventually acquitted, but at what cost?
Does trigger job = prison? No. But for every point the prosecution can make, your team has to prepare a defense. Lawyers don't charge by the hour; they charge by the minute. Every photocopy, every phone call is on your dime. A million bucks can rack up pretty quick. You have to decide for yourself, but a 1911 with a 2# trigger, a pinned grip safety, and "Punisher" grips is a slam dunk to any decent prosecutor. And prosecutors who don't win, don't keep their jobs. And they will use every trick in the book to keep them.
Right now, my carry gun is either a police trade-in model 64 or a bone-stock Sig P250. I figure I'm fairly safe with those choices (both tactically and legally). But then again, on more than one occasion, I've been accused of being overly cautious and risk-averse. Maybe that's why I carry in the first place...
Does trigger job = prison? No. But for every point the prosecution can make, your team has to prepare a defense. Lawyers don't charge by the hour; they charge by the minute. Every photocopy, every phone call is on your dime. A million bucks can rack up pretty quick. You have to decide for yourself, but a 1911 with a 2# trigger, a pinned grip safety, and "Punisher" grips is a slam dunk to any decent prosecutor. And prosecutors who don't win, don't keep their jobs. And they will use every trick in the book to keep them.
Right now, my carry gun is either a police trade-in model 64 or a bone-stock Sig P250. I figure I'm fairly safe with those choices (both tactically and legally). But then again, on more than one occasion, I've been accused of being overly cautious and risk-averse. Maybe that's why I carry in the first place...
southcoast
Member
As both Rastoff and I have both requested an actual clean shooting case where weapon modifications bore real, not imagined or speculative, legal bearing on the actual outcome I have yet to see one single case presented. I wonder why? Because despite virtual, forum discussion, speculation and hypothetical this has never happened in the real world. Take this from a lawyer who has practiced for years in Washington, DC, which is ground zero for rediculous gun charges and prosecutions.
If you have a valid claim of self defense, the efficiency of your weapon is irrelevant weather you use a blaster or a light saber.
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
And around and around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows...
gregintenn
Member
What's the difference in defending one's self against a self defense shooting with a modified gun and defending one's self against a car accident with a car that has aftermarket wheels?
I've read similar posts for years, and have yet to see any courtroom proof to these unfounded concerns.
I've read similar posts for years, and have yet to see any courtroom proof to these unfounded concerns.
Slightly off topic but relevant to LEOs, at my agency and many around my area, are that unauthorized modifications (i.e. beyond aftermarket grips/sights) have a direct affect during administrative investigations. I can remember several cases where the LEO was cleared of criminal/civil prosecution but was fired for violations in policy regarding his weapon. In two cases I was there when the charges were read and they turned in their badge/gun and ‘suspended’ pending their final notice of removal. In both cases the charges stemmed from unauthorized modification to their weapons.
At my agency and many other federal depts, a LEO will not be ‘scoped’ and represented by his agency if a clear violation of policy exists in the course of whatever law enforcement action occurred. So even if the actions of the LEO were correct, we can/have still get jammed up administratively (i.e. mod gun). Charges range from Failure to Follow Policy, Conduct Unbecoming, to Giglio issues. On top of that since the agency isn’t representing you, the LEO is responsible for his own defense.
Anyway I realize this doesn’t affect the majority of you here, but a mod’ed gun is something many LEOs have to take into consideration depending you their agency policies.
I agree with many here in that if it’s a justified use of deadly force, whether I used a mod’ed gun, a stock gun, knife, screw driver, or brick, it shouldn’t matter.
At my agency and many other federal depts, a LEO will not be ‘scoped’ and represented by his agency if a clear violation of policy exists in the course of whatever law enforcement action occurred. So even if the actions of the LEO were correct, we can/have still get jammed up administratively (i.e. mod gun). Charges range from Failure to Follow Policy, Conduct Unbecoming, to Giglio issues. On top of that since the agency isn’t representing you, the LEO is responsible for his own defense.
Anyway I realize this doesn’t affect the majority of you here, but a mod’ed gun is something many LEOs have to take into consideration depending you their agency policies.
I agree with many here in that if it’s a justified use of deadly force, whether I used a mod’ed gun, a stock gun, knife, screw driver, or brick, it shouldn’t matter.
Gun modifications should be "irrelevant and immaterial" in court....
But it does depend on were you live.
But it does depend on were you live.
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