Why do instructors bash gun brands?

This is coming out of the Ones man opinion on not carrying a 1911 for CCW thread. That thread is about an instructor voicing his opinion on why he wouldn't carry a 1911.

This leads to the thought, why do these guys feel the need to do this? Sure, he says it's only his opinion and it's only what he would do, but the underlying truth is that he want's everyone to think that way or why make the video?

I'm an instructor. I teach NRA classes as well as self-defense classes. I've seen a plethora of guns. It really doesn't matter the brand or type, I've seen them all fail. I've seen their owners shoot poorly and fantastically.

I don't care what you carry. If it's a gun you shoot well and like, then it's probably the right gun for you. If you don't shoot it well, we might have a discussion about getting something different. Even so, I wouldn't bash a particular gun no matter what, there's just no point. I guess these guys just like to try to make fun of others or are trying to make themselves feel superior.

In my experience, the time spent at the range and what you see on the target are what's really important. You can't hide from that.

It's no secret that I'm a 1911 fan. My regular assistant is a Glock fan. We give each other a ton of flak every chance we get. But you know what, having seen him shoot a lot, I'd rather have him backing me up than most I know and I don't care what gun he's using.

I agree that confidence, skill, and ability are more important than hardware. I can recall the days when there were two autos worth carrying if you wanted new production. Colt 1911 and Browning P35. And, most chose the 1911 because with ball ammo only, the .45 made a bigger hole.

We are lucky now to have so many guns that are reliable. In most cases, it comes down to whether what a person carries is reliable, and whether that person can shoot well with it. Ammo is almost secondary given the premium hollow point loads available now, which turn mostly anything 9mm or up into a good stopper if the shooter does his or her part.

The 1911 has worked since - well - 1911. The M9 is reliable (if large), as are the current Browning P35 Mark III, the CZ75B, the Glock, the FNs, the HKs, the SIG Sauers, the Walthers, and the S&Ws. We are lucky to have so many to choose from. Get a 9mm or up in one of those brands, and you won't hear me being critical.

As to why some instructors feel the need to criticize seemingly anything they do not carry, it is a mystery. Cooper was the biggest proponent of the 1911, and was single-handedly responsible for its come back, yet even he acknowledged that other pistols were reliable and suitable for self defense. If Cooper could get by without criticizing what others carry, why all these new fly-by-night "experts" who have set up a training school anywhere there is a range feel the need likely relates more to the psyche of these folks than it does any real knowledge.

Vickers has "been there, done that," and yet he says his go-to guns are the 1911, the Glock 17 and 19, the M9, and the HK VP9. Hackathorn likes the 1911, but uses a Glock 19 more regularly.

If the hardware works, the ammo is right, and the shooter can shoot with it, then the choice is probably right.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Rugers, which are tank tough, reliable and affordable. They do not get enough respect, in my opinion.

Keep a careful eye and ear out for your instructor and his sponsors. Pro shooters have sponsors, and many large instructors and schools are either affiliated with some brands directly, or indirectly. When an instructor lays heavily into one particular manufacturer positively, take it with some heaping spoonfulls, not a few grains, of salt. Chances there are other reasons beyond "opinion" and personal preference.

Instructor and teacher Mr. Soenso talks highly of brand X guns, saying they are the greatest, and always burying any other. Is he an FFL who has a dealership with his "favorite" brand? Does Mr. Soenso always talk about how you need to go to his good friend Mr. J. Doe to customize your firearms for best range/personal defense use, and amazingly, Mr. J. Doe also specializes in smithing and customizing, as well as sells brand x guns? Is Mr. Soenso always sending students to this gun shop on a very regular basis, always dropping names and leaning into all of his students to get work done/guns bought from this shop? Is it possible that Mr. Soenso is getting a commission for every sale/custom job sent to Mr. Doe? is it possible that our dear instructor is getting paid in a form for promoting someone who tells him what to promote?

Do I personally believe any of these anti 1911 posts are legitimate posts from instructors and experts based on their legitimate experience and beleifs? Not at all. This is a classic job of a Cadillac salesman deriding Continentals or visa versa. Listen to these guys long enough and you will see a connection somewhere; either they sell the guns themselves, they actually have a hidden sponsor if they are big enough with a big enough name, are paid hit jobs on the competition, or they have a working deal with someone who has an interest somewhere. 1911's have never died as a huge share of the handgun market, and there is real interest by many manufacturers in taking a piece of that action away, especially considering nobody has a patent on it anymore, and everyone and their grandmother is manufacturing them today.

So, when Mr. Soenso has authority over a class of inexperienced shooters, its no wonder why he's going to berate them for carrying a backwards piece of caveman autoloading technology, and that they should switch to the cutting edge new gun and leave the past behind, and of course, that cutting technology, is of course, brand x pistols, the very best, of course. And if they ask "What about brand y, they are also modern, plastic, and striker fired" don't be surprised if they get completely side tracked attacking brands y, a, b, and c.

Self proclaimed experts rarely know what they're talking about.

I have no knowledge of true experts such as Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith, Jeff Cooper, Dave Spaulding, Tom Givens, and several others that have ever bashed any given brand of gun.

Two reasons why they don't. Each of these gentlemen are class acts. Their reputations speak for themselves. The other reason is that if gun manufacturers ever felt slighted by a negative comment about their product by one of these guys, they would never give them another gun to evaluate.

When people are insecure about their ability and their knowledge, they can always generate credibility by attacking something. It makes them feel important.

You notice the real experts with secure reputations based on long experience don't do this.

This is human nature.

BTW, I don't carry anything so out of date as a 1911.

I carry a revolver.

Cause they're ignorant. Or dishonest. One or the other, because they can't possibly be mistaken (just ask them).


But everyone is entitled to his opinion, aren't they. Sorry if I sound too harsh.

Duckford said:

........So, when Mr. Soenso has authority over a class of inexperienced shooters, its no wonder why he's going to berate them for carrying a backwards piece of caveman autoloading technology......

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Quite frankly, if Mr. Soenso is actually facing a class of "inexperienced shooters" and he is expressing his opinion that a 1911 is likely not the best choice for their first personal defense gun, he is just doing his job. Because for a beginner it isn't.

I have no experience in firearms instructing, but I have friends who teach the classes required here for getting the CHL license. The issue are not the inexperienced shooters, but frequently the experienced "gun guys" who have to take the class for legal reasons, but already consider themselves God's gift to gun fighting. No matter whether they are Glock or 1911 aficionados, any critical remarks about their personal darling (whether from instructor or other class participants) are seen as an attack on their religion. One of my friends once remarked that if he could get away with it, he'd walk into the class with a Model 10 and tell people: "We're going to pretend tonight that this is the only gun available in this country. I'd like to get through the curriculum without another argument about which pistol is better."

I'm sure some of your criticisms here are justified. But are there really some sinister motives involved, or are you just unhappy that the instructor doesn't share your enthusiasm for your favorite gun?

I have had the great luck of having great instructors who did not 'judge' or tell what is the "best" gun to carry.

Did get some good natured ribbing when I took a class designed for the Glock crowd shooting a 1911. So they did one mag change, I did 3 per drill...

I like when an instructor can tell you why they like a certain gun or technique. To me, that is where you really learn stuff.

Bill Wilson is a competition type shooter, he likes using the slide stop to reload a 1911. I rack it. We talked about it, he told me he disagreed with me. He said a lot of people have problems because they ride the slide, and using the slide stop is faster.

Yep, it is faster, but I think racking the slide is better for me, KISS.

Just my thoughts, but a good class/instructor shows you a method that they have reasons for you doing it their way. I am happy I have never taken a class where the platform was the 'problem'.

No, no, not at all. I'm not jumping in front of the 1911 to defend it, it is simply a placeholder, an example, such as the ficticious Mr. Soenso the instructor, or Mr. John Doe the gun dealer/gunsmith, or the insidious brand x of modern handguns. Replace any of the above with whatever you like, respectively. 1911 came up because it was mentioned in the original post of the thread, and this thread was begat by a thread about someone bashing 1911's. My entire post was about the motives a lot of people have, wither it be an instructor who has interest in promoting certain things, or Youtubers and "experts" who have certain interests in promotion of one product and the character assassination of a competitor. The entire meaning, let me make myself clear, is not trying to defend any particular anything, but rather to be aware that not all of the "opinions" you hear are honest, or even from the person claiming to opine them.

Since we are on the subject of being touchy about defending our certain favorite guns, good old classics like the Model 10 and the 1911 do share a similar problem in these types of situations. It has become so accepted that newer is always better, no matter what, and just because it is newer, it has become a marketing trope that is used and abused constantly to push new products. Instead of actually comparing advantages to disadvantages, it seems like when people desire or or paid to throw mud on older products, the whole subject of how totally better brand x is over, say, a Model 10, or a Browning High Power, simply because one is old, and one is cutting edge new. Age is irrelevant, only function matters; yet when many classics come up for a fair, honest, balanced comparison, you will find that in many cases, how old one design is and how new and progressive the other is, is brought up heavily and rallied upon. Hammers are old inferior tech, and they are all junk and need to go; you MUST switch to a striker fire. Steel frame heavy weight pistols? They're alright... if you are an old man in diapers.

You'll get the occasional astro turfer showing up here trying to hawk fragmenting bullets, and its always a hoot to watch them. One time they pulled the whole "cool kid on a skateboard, your old fogey self defense rounds are backwards, and the new 2 kewl 4 skewl high tech bullets are super radical tubular awesome, and the only people who think they're not better are bitter backwards relics who are afraid of change" bit on us. Selling junk on the implication that the newer design is automatically superior, those choosing it are intelligent and progressive, and anyone who disagrees is simply old and insecure. This whole marketing strategy is quite prevalent in this day and age, and makes the double action revolver and the hammer fired steel frame auto loader tempting targets for assault. Training in a new shooter with a police surplus M10? Good choice.... grandpa.

I'm just asking people, as I always do, to think and look. I don't want to give you my conclusions, but please, look for them yourself. There are plenty of "know it all" instructors out there, but there are also people who have other connections and ways to make money. The guy who instructs on a full time basis and has a reputation will probably get known, and when known but contacted by someone who can make a few suggestions to students worth their while. The once honest Youtube channel host might start not being so honest with his reviews when he gets a chance to talk to someone who has a few suggestions, and a few dollars, for him. It is considered brilliant marketing to get experts, take their expertise, and get them to push products.

Principles over personalities; keep discussions about guns and cartridges objective and on point. This is why you should always focus purely on the message, and never the messenger, why you should never believe what any 'expert" tells you on face value. "Trust, but verify". Experts make mistakes, and they can also be bought.

Because they don't want to see people using inappropriate or poor equipment?

Because they commonly get asked why they do or don't carry a particular firearm or piece of gear?

shawn mccarver said:

Vickers has "been there, done that," and yet he says his go-to guns are the 1911, the Glock 17 and 19, the M9, and the HK VP9.

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From his website.

6. How do I know if a 1911 is the right choice for me?

That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn't mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don't get a 1911 – use a Glock. If you want a very nice 1911 that runs out of the box, get a Wilson Combat.
FAQ


From his interview with Gearscout-

"Now, I shoot a Glock," Vickers tells me. "Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ***. If they don't like messing around with the pistol and spending a grand to really get it tuned, then they should forget it."

--------

I don't see it as bashing. It's just a guy telling why he doesn't like it. I think people put too much emotions into their gun purchases.

As an instructor do you agree that there are better brands and worse brands? Guns are mechanical and they will fail sooner or later. It's a fact. Sometimes malfunctions arnt always evidence of gun failure. The end user plays just as big a role as the manufacturer. Sometimes it's the way the user is holding the gun other times you find out he went and changed a bunchof parts that don't necessarily go together or it wasn't done right. Those failures are hard to spot.

Based solely on what it was designed to do (not looks or features) and all other thing being equal (let's day you shoot them equally well and they both fit your hand perfectly) would you say a Keltec or a Jennings is on par with your HK USP 9c? Would you trust one more than the other?

Most instructors have tried many guns and have put enough rounds down range to know what works and what lasts. I'm sure you have too. For me its like this......I know I'm paying you to train me but I'm also paying you for your knowledge of firearms. If I show up with some big old **** I expect you to say something and explain why it is and why brands XYZ are better. I didn't come to be baby sat and given stickers and a pat on the back for trying.

A good instructor should be able to pick up just about anything and run it competently and help their students. How I teach to hold and press a trigger on a 1911, revolver, Glock, Hk or Beretta will be different. As an instructor I should be able to do this and have the experience with a vast variety guns to properly instruct on them. I really dislike Beretta's. I have a couple just so I can stay current and practice use and manipulations because I get students with them regularly. The reality is that some guns are pieces of ****, or a very bad choice for the student. I have loaner guns for these cases, and we get them regularly because relatives, gun shop employees or a "cop" (don't start the hate...I was one, and most should not be giving out any firearms advice) have given them terrible advice on what to use that best fits them and there dedication and lifestyle.

Essentially, I will not stop giving students input on guns and support gear. My motivation is to best serve that students needs and make them successful. If the motivation is because the instructor is ill equipped to teach on multiple systems, then you need to find a new place to spend training dollars. This also brings up the point that if a student brings an unreliable firearm to class, a firearm they cannot operate in a safe manner, or one that requires an instructor to spend a majority of time working with them because they are fighting their equipment, it is detrimental to the entire class and not fair to the other students.

Duckford said:

Keep a careful eye and ear out for your instructor and his sponsors. Pro shooters have sponsors, and many large instructors and schools are either affiliated with some brands directly, or indirectly. When an instructor lays heavily into one particular manufacturer positively, take it with some heaping spoonfulls, not a few grains, of salt. Chances there are other reasons beyond "opinion" and personal preference.

Instructor and teacher Mr. Soenso talks highly of brand X guns, saying they are the greatest, and always burying any other. Is he an FFL who has a dealership with his "favorite" brand? Does Mr. Soenso always talk about how you need to go to his good friend Mr. J. Doe to customize your firearms for best range/personal defense use, and amazingly, Mr. J. Doe also specializes in smithing and customizing, as well as sells brand x guns? Is Mr. Soenso always sending students to this gun shop on a very regular basis, always dropping names and leaning into all of his students to get work done/guns bought from this shop? Is it possible that Mr. Soenso is getting a commission for every sale/custom job sent to Mr. Doe? is it possible that our dear instructor is getting paid in a form for promoting someone who tells him what to promote?

Do I personally believe any of these anti 1911 posts are legitimate posts from instructors and experts based on their legitimate experience and beleifs? Not at all. This is a classic job of a Cadillac salesman deriding Continentals or visa versa. Listen to these guys long enough and you will see a connection somewhere; either they sell the guns themselves, they actually have a hidden sponsor if they are big enough with a big enough name, are paid hit jobs on the competition, or they have a working deal with someone who has an interest somewhere. 1911's have never died as a huge share of the handgun market, and there is real interest by many manufacturers in taking a piece of that action away, especially considering nobody has a patent on it anymore, and everyone and their grandmother is manufacturing them today.

So, when Mr. Soenso has authority over a class of inexperienced shooters, its no wonder why he's going to berate them for carrying a backwards piece of caveman autoloading technology, and that they should switch to the cutting edge new gun and leave the past behind, and of course, that cutting technology, is of course, brand x pistols, the very best, of course. And if they ask "What about brand y, they are also modern, plastic, and striker fired" don't be surprised if they get completely side tracked attacking brands y, a, b, and c.

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Maybe Mr. Soenso knows that Mr. Doe is an excellent gunsmith who uses the best parts at the expense of cost but when he does something it's done right the first time and the user will have confidence that the parts are quality.

When it comes to parts and accessories they are not all created equal. Just like not all 1911s or ARs, or AKs, or FALs are created equal.

nyeti makes real good sense. I may have even been in a course of his.

The U.S. Armed Forces has trained an awful lot of inexperienced shooters with a 1911.

I got the impression from the OP that he was referring to instructors who bashed particular brand.
"Bashing (pejorative) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashing_(pejorative)
Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group, or subject...."

But that answer is too simple for some.

I personally think there are too many instructors who are ignorant or dishonest in the basis for their opinion, 'cause they're humans, too.

Kanewpadle said:

Self proclaimed experts rarely know what they're talking about.

I have no knowledge of true experts such as Mas Ayoob, Clint Smith, Jeff Cooper, Dave Spaulding, Tom Givens, and several others that have ever bashed any given brand of gun.

Two reasons why they don't. Each of these gentlemen are class acts. Their reputations speak for themselves. The other reason is that if gun manufacturers ever felt slighted by a negative comment about their product by one of these guys, they would never give them another gun to evaluate.

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Cal44 said:

When people are insecure about their ability and their knowledge, they can always generate credibility by attacking something. It makes them feel important.

You notice the real experts with secure reputations based on long experience don't do this.

This is human nature.

BTW, I don't carry anything so out of date as a 1911.

I carry a revolver.

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Ask Vikers, Hackthorne, Pannone, McNamara what they think of Taurus (just picking an economy brand) Make sure to remind them they have no idea what their talking about and just generating credibility.

SC Representative Michael Pitts submits bills every year to deregulate gun ownership, including Constitutional Carry.

Gun shop owners and CC trainers are among the biggest OPPONENTS (!). You'd think they'd be the biggest supporters of 2A rights. On the surface, there does seem to be an interest in protection of livelihood, but the voiced complaint is that people are idiots. They see it every day, the people buying guns and taking classes. Their observations are not wrong, but what they do with it is.

Same thing with what they see with different guns and how people handle them. Their observational data is good; their generalizations about guns can be very bad.

I work at an LGS and tell people all the time, if you pick up a gun and it feels right, it probably is. I'm not a fan of G-lock, could care less about them. After saying that, I'm carrying a G34. My other go to is a G17... I have lots of styles and models of guns. revos, 1911s, and striker guns. I'm not a "Glock fan-boy", but it is my go to. I know a ton of people that carry lesser brands, (taurus, bersa, etc) and all love and trust the guns they have chosen. I will never bash any brand of gun. There's a price point for everyone is what I tell the haters/bashers. not all of us have Sig or HK money...

I don't see it as bashing, and I actually agree with the guy. The majority of people who buy a gun, including those who get CHLs do not "train". They might go to the range a few times a year. Most public ranges do not allow for drawing from a holster, shooting while moving, or shooting from cover... many even require 1 second between shots, no double taps.

So, with that in mind, what makes the most sense for a person with minimal training... those with just enough to qualify for their CHL? I would say a Glock, or similar striker fired pistol. It takes time and training to get muscle memory to take that safety off. If you go with a decocker style pistol, it takes time to master that DA to SA transition. The Glock trigger pull is the same every time, with no need to do anything other than pull the trigger... simple. Much easier to master than the long pull of a DAO as well.

A different take...............................

Bill Wilson/Wilson Combat.....Mr 1911......is a big proponent of the Beretta 92....... two operating systems/guns........ that........ the most they have in common is that they are both magazine fed!!LOL

To the point he was buying (so the rumors went) every EliteII he could find for sale..... then he had Beretta build 1000 Guns to his specs. for resale.....at this point he may be on his second 1000 gun order.

He also has "stuff" for the Glock...........................