Not wanting to Hi-jack anyone else's thread, I wanted to post my personal opinion on not using / using optics like red dots on a CCW/EDC gun. You may not totally agree, but at least you might think about it before ragging on me.

No matter what brand, model or size of your optical sight, they are subject to failure. Batteries can die, a wire or contact can break or come loose, a switch can fail, or they can simply get knocked out of alignment or adjustment.

OK - I can already hear some shouting at me,"hey, I've been using one for XX amount of years, carry it every day and it's never failed me" or..... "hey, I replace the batteries every year". OK - not saying that happens everyday, but failures do happen and no one can choose when it does. Everything works 100% .... until it fails! I have personally helped friends fix a few wires, clean a contact, realigned a few and have eye witnessed more than one competitor pack up his gun and go home during a competition because their red dot failed. One thing that also disturbs me is when I see guys who rack the hell out of the slide using the optic as a cocking lever! Yes - I have seen quite a bit of that! Not to mention after using a red dot for a bit - you become dependent on it - like reading glasses. Sort of loosing your ability to do mathematics in your head because every cell phone has a calculator in it.

When you shoot & train with an optical sight your brain gets use to seeing the red dot. Should it not appear, you will still be trying to acquire it even though it's not there. While doing so, you are delayed in firing until it registers that you could have a failure. Valuable seconds lost! You also need to carry more weight, bulk and many times require a special holster to carry a gun with an optic on it. In some light conditions red dots are difficult to acquire - I've seen friends moving their head around looking for it more than a few times. Again, another delayed shot. Lasers you say? They draw fire right to you!

Another very important fact is that for the lions share of us (non LEO) private citizens, SD shootings occur at very short distances that simply don't require a red dot! To me I prefer the K.I.S.S. theory and don't like to add stuff on my EDC pistol simply because everyone else has or it looks cool. Many time an optic is a poor excuse to shoot better. I propose learning how to shoot correctly with iron sights in the first place. YES.... I am aware there are a very small minority that can no longer clearly see iron sights well, but then again, SD shootings usually do not require fine sighting at a few feet away. If you shoot someone at 20 yards, that will probably be called murder! Most here are not LEO's and are not taking 20 yard shots for SD. That would be the very rare exception!

My intention here is not to anger or piss anyone off - it's simply to inspire clear thinking on exactly why one wants to or has mounted an optic on their EDC/CCW pistol. Please don't comeback with "OK, then why are company's selling optic ready pistols"? Why.... because it is a money making proposition for them and the optic company's. The pistol manufacturers, optics manufacturers, holster makers, battery company's etc. all profit while in fact many are being hoodwinked. Why do they sell cars that park themselves? If you can't park a car maybe you shouldn't be operating one. Why.... again it's a money maker!

OK - so for the guys here who have read the entire post so far and have not already started typing out an angry response, thank you! All I would like to do is for those who have been thinking about optics on carry guns, please rethink. If you still want to do it - then by all means - it's your choice.

I have posted my personal pet peeve here on optics for EDC/CCW guns and BTW this has nothing at all to do with target or competition guns. If you lose a match or miss a bullseye, no one gets hurt. I hope I at the very least I get a few here to think about this first before doing anything. That's about all I can hope for as I realize ultimately, this is your decision. I will apologize in advance if I have rubbed anyone the wrong way - certainly not my intent, I am just a bit passionate about this subject.

Regards,
Chief38

@Chief38,

Thank you, very well said. When I posted my thread and started getting berated, I was trying to ask what you addressed.

While I am transitioning to the RDS for competitions, there are many instances where I have to hunt for the dot ... fortunately, targets don't shoot back! With all that I see in other forums, I have to question the thinking behind the use of RDSs on an EDC SD pistol.

I am old school, I believe that irons need to be mastered before moving to optics, especially on a service rifle! For me, I'd rather place my survival on iron sights and point shooting before I would place the levels of confidence that I read of on an optic sight, rifle or pistol!

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Judge control not gun control!

Great post, Chief! It echos my thinking perfectly. I use red dots in competition, but have no use for them in defense - for exactly the reasons you state.

Thanks for the post!

Chief38,

Very good post. You know where I stand on CCW weapons/sight from the thread you did not try to hijack.

AJ

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Valid points, Chief. My personal choice is an EDC with iron sights. Nothing to fail. No extra bulk or modified holster needed. That's just my opinion, and we all need to do what feels right. I will say that I do have a red dot on my bedside pistol since I don't have to holster/un-holster it. Also if I need it, I won't have my glasses on, it's likely going to be pitch black and easy to pick up the red dot and get it on target. I have my red dots set up to co-witness the iron sights in case the optic fails. That is a must for me.

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What could possibly go wrong?

RDS?
RDS at the range is great fun. Can be a bit show-offish. I can take my time find the dot, and round after round in the ten ring. My old eyes love them.
However......I won't have that "time" when required to defend myself and family. I'll stick to what I've have trained with for 50+ years. Point and shoot, center of mass. Assailants do not have ten rings. And if they did one won't have time to look for the "X".

My duty gun has a red dot and suppressor hight iron sights.
My off duty guns are irons.
I train with both.
My eyes are 62 years old. The optic is a plus at distance.
I’m not a gadget ***** but when something helps I’ll use it.
We qualify and train with both irons and optic.
I embrace technology but I do not depend on it.
The important thing is to train. Often.

Our red dot school is 8 hours.
4 hours of dry fire drills and 4 hours live fire. 500 rounds. It’s pretty rigorous for an 8 hour class.

Is that for experienced shooters? The class I taught in the Corps was 40+ hours and over 1K of rounds during that time frame, for just iron sights.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Chief38: Agree one hundred percent. Optics make sense on duty guns but my EDC is usually a J Frame or sometimes the LCP, pocket carried & too small for an optic.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Exactly the same reason I never got an Ipad for music & lyrics onstage. Paper never has a dead battery!

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Uvidíme se později, aligátore.

"Add ons" take time that you do not have. At defense range if I cannot be confidant with iron sights, I have no business pulling the trigger.

That class is for those that have been shooting irons. Optics are relatively new on pistols in law enforcement. The biggest problem is acquiring the dot without having to search for it. Interestingly it seems that if we revisit and focus on the fundamentals it eliminates many problems when adding an optic.

I go back and forth, shooting several with and several without on my range outings. So nice to have such great choices.

On range outings....what about your EDC/CCW gun?

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I have a RDS on a Ruger 22/45 that is just a plinking toy for me, outside of that I really have no use for them. Most of the time I take it off after just a bit and am usually scoring hits every bit as good without.

By the vast amount of people using them they must certainly have their place, just really not for me. I would never consider putting one on a carry weapon.

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Life Member GOA and NRA

Chief.........I agree with you 100%. While are looking for the dot the other feller will be shootin..........Local game warden came by awhile back....His duty gun ad a RDS and a flashlight mounted. I just shook my head.

To quote Bill Jordon......."There's no second place winner in a gun fight."

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S&W Accumulator

I have said it before, and I will say it again....
Guns don't use batteries...

I agree too. But then I'm a geezer who actually likes revolvers in general and J frames in particular. For EDC, SD who uses sights? At most a smeared splotch of orange nail polish on center mass, a few times.

I’m 62 years old and have had much firearms training by many different instructors. I’ve learned to not ever believe that I have now arrived and have things all figured out and there is no sense in considering anything new. You never stop learning, there is always someone better and more skilled that you can learn from, and yes equipment, guns and ammo can change for the better. Do not get closed minded. No matter how long you’ve been shooting, how good you think you are or were, or how much you really like your present set up. It can’t hurt.
Train with what you do have. Don’t just have it. And read your Bible. Can’t leave that part out. Lol.

I'm with you 100% Chief

Like has been said. The bulk of CCW use is going to be up close and personal. Time to think and/or "get ready" is not going to be there.

That's where the practice and muscle memory comes in. I'm no close combat expert by any means however I do practice, a lot. And a bunch of my practice is "hip shooting". Odd angles, on one knee, left handed and so on.

I'm not adding trying to acquire a red dot or turn something on or whatever into my process.

I want my practice to be 2nd nature. 1,2,3,4. 1,2,3,4. I'm not going to make it 1,2,3,4,5,6

That's also why I believe just one EDC. KISS

And no I'm not saying you can't carry a 155mm howitzer in the woods hunting. But only one EDC firearm. Learn it, know it, practice, practice with it.

I’m pretty much in agreement. Much is said about the size of EDC gun. If it’s large and cumbersome you’re more likely to leave it at home. To me putting an optic on a micro 9 defeats the purpose of it being a “micro”. It no longer fits in my pocket. The one question I have is. Do guys who use optics turn them on when they put gun on? Or do they intend to turn it on when needed? The closest I’ve come to optics is Crimson Trace Laser Grips on my Baretta Tomcat. But the sights shoot to same POI.

Optics now have a “shake awake” feature that turns the optic on as soon as it is moved. Battery life is very long. Thousands of hours.

To address the elephant in the room, it has been my experience that many individuals who recently started carrying feel as if they want the “cool” factor of adding stuff to their EDC as if they were dressing up their AR-15. Sights, optics, flashlights, special triggers and extra mags out the wazoo. CCW is serious business and if it wasn’t part of my job and I had not experienced life on the other side then my thoughts may be different. Real life experiences change perspectives. When I re-qualified a couple months ago with my old department, I spoke with so many young officers flashing all this stuff we are speaking about and also saw them shooting in the 80% range. I took a LW Commander and shot two perfect scores, got my new LEOSA card and wandered down the training building where we were fed a catered meal!

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S&W factory revolver armorer

The biggest downside to an optic is that the shooter thinks it will make shooting easier. They tend to forget fundamentals. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “I was holding the dot right on the target” then I tell them yes you were just before you jerked the trigger and dipped the muzzle. I have to take the gun from them and shoot it for them before they believe the optic is zeroed. Optics are not better than irons and irons are not better than optics. They are different and one has advantages and disadvantages over the other.

Assuming the "shake away" feature, batteries and contacts all work as designed. I just don't see an equal amount of advantage at a few feet (most self defense needs) against all the disadvantages mentioned in the original post.

Hey, to each his/her own, but IMHO it's just tries to fix a problem that doesn't exist and can actually be a hinderance for many toters in many ways. K.I.S.S. works for me.

Again, for competitions, LEO's who do take more long range shots, I can see optical sights. My post was focused on non LEO regular armed citizens.

Seems like the usual (some) in the older up in age generation who think the way they did things and di things is better than the younger generation. They don't like change or evolution. The same phenomenon and arguments happened when polymer framed pistols and even night sites started to become popular.

#1: Optics are reliable and have been proven. The notion that the battery failure suddenly out of the blue during a self-defense situations when they've been perfectly fine otherwise is improbable "what-if" conjecture that's not probably or is happening in reality with quality optics. Next, it's common for most people to have their optic and irons co-witness, so that even if the optic is damaged, the irons can be used as backup.

#2: I believe the OP is projecting. Just because he hypothesize that his brain can not handle switch back and forty between irons and optics, he puts that on everyone else. I know MANY gun owners who routinely train and shoot with both irons and optics, and they are fast, accurate, and efficient with both.

#3: Just because a pistol has iron sites and/or an optic on it doesn't mean the shooter MUST utilize them. That is, if a self-defense situation happens at bad breath distances, the shooter can point and shoot and NOT use their optic or irons. If they're in a situation where there is more time/distance then they can utilize their optics or irons. The argument that optics on a EDC are useless just because many altercations will call for point shooting is just as silly as saying that no one's EDC should have iron sites attached to the slide for that same exact reason.

I get it but I was seeing a lot of posts by people whom I think may not have been up to speed on what the optics of today are capable of and have to offer, especially for those older eyes. My off duty guns do not have optics on them. They may in the future but not now.

A friend of mine (who was a range officer for a good sized PD) called those young guys "Hamburger Flippers".

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Couldn’t agree with you more OP. Well stated…

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Some Might Say.

Don't get shot looking for your dot.......

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S&W Accumulator

So you are against iron sights on EDCs too? Do you believe irons should be taken off of carry guns because self-defense situations can also happen within a few short feet? No one who trains or practices at the range or in a class should be utilizing their irons because they're not ever going to need them?

I know why a lot of people want optics on their EDC. They take their EDC to a range and blaze away at a target, usually at a longer range than would be common for SD scenario. They get lousy results and thing they should get bullseye type results. Slap a red dot on their EDC and they can actually keep some bullets on paper.
Actually 99% of SD is going to be at ranges that don’t require any sights.
It is story time if they think they are going to be drawing a bead on the bad guy. There is a lot of people making a lot of money selling “tactical” stuff to people who don’t know jack about what they are doing. Futher more they aren’t going to invest the time or effort to learn.

It's not a laser. I see a lot of comments coming from those who are ignorant about red dots. You don't search for the dot. The dot is there then you draw. It's faster for most people, even newbies and experienced shooters alike, to get on target with dots vs irons.

For "up close & personal" fights measured in feet, sights are of no consequence. Trigger control is and then it is sort of like a computer as you "point & click".

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

That's my point. If that's the case, why aren't everyone bashing putting night sights or having irons on pistols period? Using that logic and argument, people who put night sights, fiber optic sights, or have sights on their pistols at are are wasting their money. Using that logic, those who use their irons during training and practice at the range with their EDC are also wasting their time.

Anyone in this thread who ever trained with their EDC while utilizing their irons or who ever installed sights on their EDC pistols wasted their money and time because irons on EDCs are completely useless, correct?

I know it's not a lazer........It's a ting electric dot in a 1 in. screen that would be very hard to find in an up close (very fast) bad situation.

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S&W Accumulator

But it's not hard to find lol. What you claim in not true at all. That's why I say you're not speaking from experience, and it's evident. You are not searching for the dot. You present the weapon, focus on the threat, and the dot is there. You aren't searching for a dot in the same since that you'd be searching for a dot using a laser sight.

Next, most self defense optics dots are typically 3" or 6" MOA, NOT 1" as you incorrectly claimed. Yet another example that you are inexperienced and are making assumptions.

We need a poll!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

You didn't respond to my prior post?

That's my point. If that's the case, why aren't everyone bashing putting night sights or having irons on pistols period? Using that logic and argument, people who put night sights, fiber optic sights, or have sights on their pistols at are are wasting their money. Using that logic, those who use their irons during training and practice at the range with their EDC are also wasting their time.

Anyone in this thread who ever trained with their EDC while utilizing their irons or who ever installed sights on their EDC pistols wasted their money and time because irons on EDCs are completely useless, correct?

I believe he wrote " "1" screen" not "1 dot".

Having been a shooter for over 60 years fixed sights on old Colts were my first. When on Army team and AMU taught us the basics and the Best shooting techniques. We shot Combat matches which were different than Bullseye. Learned alot. Since then have carried fixed or adjustable sight pistols for CCW. Now at 73 years have added Crimson Trace grips to my CCW LW Commander that has tritium fixed sights that I use at the range. Can say that at 20 yards and less rounds stay on B-27 repair in 9 to X ring.

Is this the updated version about the argument whether fixed or adjustable sights are best on a defensive pistol?

As far as Night Sights are concerned:

I have only one pistol that has nights on it. That is my Sig P365 and the only reason they are on it is because it came from the factory that way. Quite honestly, when pulled out of a holster or night table draw, they are so dim that it takes at least 4-5 seconds to even see them. Even if you saw them instantly, that won't help illuminate the intended target. While I suppose they might be easier to acquire when you are in a dark room for a longer period of time, I would not have installed them as an after market option if they were not on there from the Factory.

In my home I have always put 4-5 LED automatic low-light nightlights. I have them in strategic locations so that I can see what is lurking in the dark, but not bright enough for someone who does not know my home's layout to know where we are. It gives me just enough light to see the sights on a gun and be able to see the intruder at he same time. They also are great when I get up a few times to make a bathroom run late at night - LOL!!

I doubt fiber optic sights would be usable (as intended) at very very low light conditions either and in the daytime (indoors), would function basically as plain sights unless in direct sunlight.

Playing the devil’s advocate here, you can make the same arguments about optics on rifles and many did - especially back in the ‘50’s. Scopes were expensive, bulky, unnecessary and prone to failure. Real men shot deer with iron sights. It took time but look where we are now with rifle optics. I predict the same for handguns. As us “old guys” fade away, new shooters coming on line will use them routinely and without fear of failure. You sure don’t have to change if you don’t want to but the future will come anyway. Pistol optics are here to stay and more people use them every year.

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Everybody could shoot

Rotation most of the year:

G43x MOS
P365
P365 X macro

all with dots.

P2000sk 40S&W
G45

iron sights.

All 5 have passed my testing to be in the rotation meaning 100% reliable.

During potential bear encounter season, the 629 is go to. No dot there.

I'm fairly dot "agnostic" but there's quite a bit of misinformation in this thread.

The first is the idea of looking for the dot. One doesn't look for the dot. One looks at a precise point on the target and superimposes the dot on that spot. The ability to do that is built from one's index.

The fastest most accurate shooters in the world are all to a man shooting with a target focus versus a focus on the sighting system, whether that's irons or a dot. In fact they shoot optics and irons the same exact way.

One interesting discussion that's been brought to the forefront of firearms training as a result of RDS proliferation is "single focal plane" shooting versus "three focal plane" shooting. Which brings up the efficacy of how we have been training shooters to align a post in a notch in traditional iron sight orthodoxy.

Some have already commented that most pistol fights are "up close and personal" which is generally true. What most disconnect from is that despite the distance being close, the target offered may very well be low probability or even partially obscured. It's doubtful that a bad guy is going to stand squared and still like a B-27 cardboard and let you punch his X ring.

Finally the idea that dots are fine for range or casual use and not appropriate for the rigors of an uncontrolled, unpredictable environment contradicts the FACT that operators from both CAG and DEVGRU have been killing bad guys quite well with RDS equipped pistols in austere environments for quite some time now. Guys from Ground Branch have killed several bad guys with RDS equipped handguns within the past year. I know them personally.

So to reiterate irons or dot...meh...totally up to you. Just make sure that your choice is informed by actual well-grounded CURRENT facts versus subjectivity, heresay, or dabbling.

I'm not a red dot hater, but I'm a man who has doubts. I rarely voice these doubts though. When addressing the red dot faithful, it seems less likely to start a fight than lewd and obscene comments about their wives. My son is among the faithful, so we have had many interesting discussions on the topic. I don't hate them. I have one on a Glock clone that I'm still trying to make peace with.

I have seen a good many of what I consider to be failures with my own two eyes between low key leagues and competitions as well as shooting with my son and brother.

My son's Trijicon SRO once fogged up with ice fog so awfully that I could not see through it. We were shooting on a very cold Winter day that had a bit of ice ice fog. My son left his pistol on the bench a few moments while setting up targets, etc. Called range hot and picked it up. Totally blocked screen from fogging and misting over.
Solution: use a good anti fog wipe such as " cat ****" regularly. That would indeed be a solution. Add that to your regular routine and it's all just fine.

Same Trijicon SRO now in the Summer: we had a "bring a friend day" at our league. My wife and I both invited our son. It was a pretty intensive course of fire requiring at least 60 rounds anyways. My son is normally a very decent shooter. He stepped to the line and started blazing away and missing terribly. He dumped mags where I had fired controlled pairs. Afterwards, when I asked him what happened, he told me his dot failed. He was trying to fire using the silhouette of the dot and failing miserably, even on targets as close as 7 yards. He had turned it on and checked before leaving the house. A few days later he opened the battery compartment to see that some time in the last month or so since he shot it the battery had exploded. There was battery goo and corrosion all over his battery compartment. This was a brand new included battery with a very expensive optic. Solution: run a quality battery? Physically pull it out and inspect it on a regular schedule? Add that to your routine.

Another Trijicon red dot. Son showed up to a Steel Challenge shooting an optics division. Was shooting an optics division. Shot really bad again. Eventually realized that some time in the last week the dot had worked itself loose and was barely secured on the gun. It had been properly torqued and installed with factory included thread locker. Solution...I guess use a quality known thread lock. Check mounting firmness regularly. Don't forget lens wipes. Don't forget physical battery inspection.

Vortex Viper- Brother was shooting his. Suddenly two pieces fly off and hit him in the head and face. Turned out his battery cover got loose. Searched 10 minutes for missing pieces, re-assembled, went back to shooting. Easy solution. Make sure it's screwed down all the way. It'll be easy to check regularly between adding cat ****, quality battery, checking battery regularly, and checking mounting is still secure. Just don't get distracted while doing this routine. Whatever you do, don't let your wife, children, pets, neighbors, phone calls from work, or door to door sales people distract ya'...

I can't count the number of dot failures on my rifle when shooting on cold days inparticular. I'm told that newer quality dots that have 50K hour battery lives don't do that. Apparently my dots didn't get the memo that they can't fail when it's 20 below zero.

On the other hand, I can count times when dots have really impressed me. I did a beginner's league last Summer. Not like learning basics, but learning basics for action shooting. I was the only guy who shot a revolver, so...there wasn't any competition for me. I looked at the scores one day and decided to compare mine to the open sight service pistol category...closest I could find to a revolver category. Turned out, I had done fantastically well. I ranked very highly, which is kinda cool for comparing a revolver score to all the excellent service autos out there. Then I compared my scored to the carry optic division. I was darn near dead last. And I knew many people who had beat my score were novice shooters altogether.

Another time I was shooting a snubby K frame and doing very well at 15-20 yards hitting small steel. I was making some very fast. Solid hits. Heck. I was fortunate to not dislocate my arm patting myself on the back! Then some other shooters show up beside me. A guy gives his wife a dot sighted Glock and the usual basic instructions. She clearly was not a person who shot much. Within a few minutes she was really close to my own speed. If not slightly better. I muttered under my breath, said something about darn whippersnapper kids and their Eelectronic gadgets, laughed at myself and called it a day.

At ASI, my son expected to see a buncha old men swearing about the 1911 and M-14 being the last good guns ever made, etc. He was very surprised to see those old men all carrying modern polymer weapons and sporting red dots. They apparently use them well too, because I sure struggle against them.

Most of my red dot doubts though center around the fact that I do not want another routine added to my life. I do not want to do a pre-flight inspection before carrying my concealed pistol. If I lived in some awful crime ridden city, I might feel different. But
..I live in the suburbs...in Alaska. My J frame usually seems quite adequate. On days that it's not, my full size 8 shot iron sighted 357 certainly is. When it comes down to it, I think a life preserving inspection would be better spent on seatbelts, brakes, air bags, emergency car gear, first aid kits, fire extinguishers, etc.

I will continue working with the red dot pistol I have. I will one day add a red dot to one of my revolvers. But...y'all just gotta forgive me for not jumping in with both feet. I still have doubts.

Now we have two

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I’m your Boogie Man, uh huh.

Reading this, I recalled a moment when I first tried the RDS. I was shocked at how unstable my sight picture was. I didn't have that issue with irons! Wellllll actually I did, I just didn't notice it. A little more work on the fundamentals and accepting the reality that you really do have an iron sight wobble area and I was doing fine.