Weakness with regards to vintage American side by side shotguns

mrcvs · Mar 5, 2016

Does it seem to you that the vintage side by side market is weak? I am referring to vintage side by side American firearms with steel barrels, produced during the first half of the 20th century. Makes such as Parker, A H Fox, L C Smith, Ithaca, and Winchester Model 21.

I have always had a weakness for these.

Locally, if proxibid results can be trusted, an Ithaca Grade 3 may have sold for $1100, and a L C Smith Field Grade 20 ga for $900 and an Ideal Grade for $1700. These prices are before commissions and taxes. The first two were in decent shape and the Ideal L C Smith looked impeccable but I suspect a very good refinish. Case colouring did not look as blue as typical Smith case colouring is and checkering seemed too flat.

Other than the occasional 40-something like me and those much older than me, who would be buying this stuff? Strongly supports my theory about an increasingly softening market.

Edit: the Ithaca and the Ideal Grade L C Smith are both 12 gauges and the Ithaca Grade 3 is a New Ithaca Double vintage 1927.

litauer · Mar 5, 2016

The British SxS market is even deader, if that's possible.

mrcvs · Mar 5, 2016

litauer said:
The British SxS market is even deader, if that's possible.

Really? Tell me more!

I have not explored the possibility of owning one of these since thinking, as a kid in the 1980's reading George Bird Evans' column in Gun Dog, and him talking about his Purdey and they were over $20,000 even then. I thought I will never even remotely have the possibility of owning one. Any ideas what they, or other decent British side by sides bring these days, and where to go for one? I do like auctions; I set my price and get it, or I don't! I was in the showroom of Holland & Holland in London several years ago, and, at least there, prices showed no signs of weakness.

mrcvs · Mar 5, 2016

Hey, I just was thinking about this a bit more--

Now, you think the Downton Abbey craze would make everyone run out and buy the latest British shotgun on sale at their LGS...

Nah, that just makes too much sense. Besides, it goes against the grain of the left-leaning media in this country.

Bill Bates · Mar 5, 2016

The shooter grade SxS market, American or European, is pretty flat to dead especially in 12 Gauge. The sub gauge guns still bring decent money but not what they did 5 or 6 years ago. I guess us old guys that like side by sides prefer carrying lighter guns these days.

The only guns bring good money, record money, are super high original condition guns. The values plummet when moving from 98% guns to 85-90% guns. From there values drop like a 500 grain slug fired from a .45-70 passing 600 yards.

It seems like there is tons of junk, dead, messed with doubles coming out of the wood work. There are also lots of double that have been sitting on the same dealers tables and shelves for years because they won't take the loss needed to move them. You see bunches of off face, loose guns with sleeved barrels, buggered screws, hot blued barrel, honed bores, lengthened chambers poorly sanded wood and metal refinished by bubba junk. A person can get badly burned out there if they don't know what they are looking at when wandering the shows. The double gun market is not the place for the novice.

Of course we can look at the bright side. If your like me and really like shooting double guns there are some good buys to be had. They may be hard to find but they are out there.

tops · Mar 5, 2016

The market might be dead but I'm not and I feel better when carrying a SXS. Larry

loc n load · Mar 6, 2016

SxS

A soft market in the SxS is good news for guy's like me ( but probably not for the future of SxS's), I still hunt birds and field trial. My favorite field gun is and has been for years an imported 16 ga SxS. I own and shoot doubles from 12 to 28 ga. My hunting partner shoots a SxS 410, and bags a lot of birds with that little gun. But overall, I do not see many of them in the hands of younger shooters, mostly semi's. I also shoot clays with some of my doubles, just because I can. I grew up with men who hunted with SxS's, and I always admired a well put together double gun, and still do. But like all things that are labor intensive to craft and therefore more expensive, the demand seems to have declined.

Watchdog · Mar 6, 2016

mrcvs said:
Does it seem to you that the vintage side by side market is weak? I am referring to vintage side by side American firearms with steel barrels, produced during the first half of the 20th century. Makes such as Parker, A H Fox, L C Smith, Ithaca, and Winchester Model 21.

I have always had a weakness for these.

Like you, I have a weakness for the old doubles. Not sure, though, what you mean by the market being "weak". Old doubles are going for a premium around here...but then again, the bird hunting cliques are still around in big numbers down here in the South.

Even the 12-gauges are premium priced, and they don't have to be fancy ones, either. A forties-vintage Winchester 24 came into an LGS recently. I'd had one back in the seventies in 16-gauge...this one was a 12. I'd always liked their simplicity and streamlined design, and they're a true hammerless gun. Anyway, I went back the next day, fully intending to buy it. It was gone, having sold for $475 within hours.

There's a Stevens 311 for sale at an LGS right now. 12-guage. I think it's choked mod/imp. Asking price? $600!!

I'd take a guess and say that east of the Mississippi, the market for old doubles is fairly strong.

H Richard · Mar 6, 2016

In the Midwest a "nice" double won't last long, and a 20 Ga. L.C.Smith would go for well beyond $900 for any condition above 80%.

Bill Bates · Mar 6, 2016

H Richard said:
In the Midwest a "nice" double won't last long, and a 20 Ga. L.C.Smith would go for well beyond $900 for any condition above 80%.

Maybe saying price have tanked would be more accurate than saying the market is dead. Six or seven years ago a nice LC Smith Field Grade 20 gauge was a $2000 dollar gun. In another post someone mentioned a 12 Gauge Winchester Model 24 going quickly at a $475 but they same gun would have gone quickly at $600-700 five years ago but not today unless it is truly minty.

To move a shooter grade double anywhere in the country right now requirers the dealer to really sharpen his pencil and get the price down from where he would have priced it just five or six years ago.

caduceus · Mar 6, 2016

Vintage side by sides

I to have a soft spot that dates back to the great days of bob white quail hunting over great dogs. It lifts my heart's memories . Haven't see a quail in my parts for 20 yrs. Dove hunting is poor to fair etc. so unless on the trap or sporting clays range not much use for a nice side by side.
That being said I do own 3, original L. C. Smith field grade 85% gun, wood could use a refinish , one Ithaca 4E Flues trap. Believe dates 1918. Stock cut and fitted with extension and two screws replaced but bought it for 600$. Ivory front sight engraved etc. and still will toast clay birds all day long. One youth model Steven's 20 ga. sxs with ? brown Plastic stock and forearm , strange looking gun but shoots great, keeping for Grandson. Only one I have ever seen.
For some strange reason I always wanted a Pigeon grade 101 Winchester over and under, seen one the other day, 95% gun, passed at 1100.0, just don't have a use for it anymore, if I did would be home with me now.
" Memories are like a river that runs through your mind", Right now can hear and see the rise of a covey of bobwhite quail on a frosty morn! Hope those memories never fade....

medic15al · Mar 6, 2016

My first gun was a Revelation marked Stevens Model 94 single barrel 16ga choked down like a rifle. Real squirrel getter. For years until just recently I have lusted for a 16 ga SxS double.

2 years ago I became a proud owner of a Stevens 311 16ga double! F/M and I love it!

Jebus35745 · Mar 6, 2016

Love the SxS's, can remember as a kid seeing hunters walking down the side of the road with SxS's broken open over their shoulders as they looked for another brushy place for bunnies. Owned a bunch over the years and preferred 2 triggers. The Brno sidelock I thought would never be replaced is second fiddle to a Beretta 626 Onyx. It has a vent rib, beaver tail and a pistol grip. The 26" bbls have choke tubes which it a nice option. I can live with the single trigger, got an excellent price on the gun. Larry

Bill Bates · Mar 6, 2016

I really do love old side by sides. I have a thing for Foxes and lesser so Parkers. I don't know why by LC Smiths have never done it for me. I have all the common gauges 12 through 28 handled. Maybe some day I'll pick up a .410 provided I can find one that doesn't feel like a little double rifle.

So here are few photos.

Some Fox guns and one old Belgian double.

153386773.E4hhoXqT.foxandread11_15_13.jpg

and two Parkers a GH and a custom 16 gauge

And one of my favorites; a Italian 16 Gauge SIACE hammer gun

mrcvs · Mar 6, 2016

H Richard said:
In the Midwest a "nice" double won't last long, and a 20 Ga. L.C.Smith would go for well beyond $900 for any condition above 80%.

What should I budget for a decent 20 ga L C Smith? Still kicking myself for missing that one yesterday. I prefer to buy at auction and generally avoid retail markup. The one at auction yesterday at auction wasn't an extraordinary gun. Some case colours present but not much, barrels and wood okay. If it was a 12 ga you wouldn't have looked twice at it, which is how I missed it! Maybe, given condition it was a fair price but not necessarily a steal?

caleb4387 · Mar 6, 2016

I want a sxs but I don't need anything fancy...an old Stevens 311 will do the job for me

model70hunter · Mar 7, 2016

Bill Bates said:
I really do love old side by sides. I have a thing for Foxes and lesser so Parkers. I don't know why by LC Smiths have never done it for me. I have all the common gauges 12 through 28 handled. Maybe some day I'll pick up a .410 provided I can find one that doesn't feel like a little double rifle.

Bill, beautiful guns. My first shotgun was a Stevens M-94 in 410 and Dad's bird gun was a Stevens 311 in 16. Both are mentioned by folks on this post.

In the Middle 80's it seemed every LGS I stopped at had a Parker or AH Fox for sale, cheap. In a short order I ended up with 6 Parkers with one being an A grade and some AH Foxes with one being a C grade. The most I paid was $250 for a Parker VH 12 that had been reblued and new AA wood added on the 1 1/2 frame. I had one 16 on the O frame. The rest were mixtures of 1 1/2 or 2 frames and were VHE's or VH's.

As I started acquiring AH Foxes I felt that they were the better of the 2.

I grew up in a quail rich area but most guns were M-12 Wins, Browning Sweet 16's and lots of pumps. The only LC Smiths I saw were of the farmer type, heavy and strong but not light like a game gun. I sold my gun collection as I go into a big D. I never again sought a SxS as I rolled into competitive shotgun sports where the O/U was the thing.

Once at Tulsa I almost traded into an H&H Badminton SxS. The guy packed up and left early and I missed out. This type of gun is distinctly a game gun. Light and lively which was nothing like Dad's old 16.

Once in a while I'll see an AH Fox or a Parker but have not bit. The desire to own one for me has died.

For a long time my Pheasant gun was a Beretta Onyx lightweight in 12. I traded it in on my 1st Sporting clays gun. That is one trade I'd like to have back, I do miss it. Light, lively and deadly.

Thanks for posting yours, it brought back great memories.

bigmoose · Mar 7, 2016

A very reputable dealer had a 12 GA LC Smith Field Grade on his table at the gun show that he couldn't get rid of. I saw him later at his shop and picked it up for $350. 28" barrels improved mod/full. It had a crack on the upper tang wood and a loose fore end. It was otherwise sound and un-messed with. I repaired the wood and made a fore end (Curtiss style) latch spring (the original was busted). Barrels ring true and are tight on face.

The best thing about this 1917 vintage double 12? It weighs 6 pounds 6 1/2 ounces. I swear to God! I carry it often and recently bagged a couple of pheasants with it.

I have small bore Foxes, a Browning and a Poli (Italian), but there is something about this 12 LC Smith that is just so cool.

That being said, high grade, high condition doubles will always command high money, and will continue to hold their value.

H Richard · Mar 7, 2016

mrcvs, you want a 20 ga. L.C.Smith, first there is finding one in the condition you will be willing to buy, then you will find how much it costs. Lower condition guns may be available for less than $1000 "somewhere", but I haven't seen any. A really nice one would probably be $1500 to $2000. I saw one in a gun shop in Columbia MO, about 18 months ago, a 1927 and 98% all original. It was priced at $8000, but he immediately came down to $5000 and I believe it could have been bought for closer to $4000 then. The scarcity of these "nice" high grade doubles is the problem.

italiansport · Mar 7, 2016

L C Smith pre 1912 Grade III. Hunter single selective trigger with auto ejectors and fluid steel 28" barrels. I hate to think what it would cost to build this gun today.
Jim

Weakness with regards to vintage American side by side shotguns

SWCA Member

Member

SWCA Member

SWCA Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

US Veteran

Member

US Veteran

Member

Member

Member

SWCA Member

Member

Member

Member

US Veteran

Member

Similar threads