I recently acquired this DWM Luger. As much research as I have done, I have not been able to nail down a year or if this is a civilian or non-civilian model. I think it is a 9mm but am not sure and slightly afraid to rack a 9mm round into it. Could someone point me in the right direction as to what the year of manufacture is and who it was made for? Also, what would be the ballpark value?

Thank you in advance.

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Lugers were only made in 2 centerfire cartridges, 9x19 Parabellum (A.K.A 9mm Luger) and 7.65 Luger (A.K.A. 30 Luger) Try sticking any 30 caliber projectile (even loaded) in the muzzel, if it is a tight fit it is a 30, if it is sloppy loose it is a 9mm. The guns in 9mm were made to use 115 and 124 grain projectiles. Avoid +P and 147 grain (they are safe but the sights will be wrong.)

Ivan

I am no expert, but put me in the pool for a 9mm civilian export to the United States. Value on Lugers is largely determined by "matching parts" as to whether the serial number matches on all the parts including the magazine in addition to condition. Baseline value would be likely about $1,200 for a shooter, but maybe multiples of that depending on matched parts and condition.

I’m no expert either, but this would be my suspicion too.

The conspicuous absence of markings and the all-cap GERMANY, often found on early 20th century exports, support that possibility.

Luger collectors generally like military provenance and stampings, so this might impact its value. I know from past threads about Lugers that we have some members with more specialized knowledge on these. Hopefully some more will join in.

You could also ask on the Jan C. Still Luger forum. Google the link. They live and breathe Lugers over there

I see no proof marks on the right side, incorrect serial # type on the left side, no 2 digit number stamp on the parts. Top of the receiver should have a date. Looks like a complete refinish. Without the correct style serial # I would dump that gun like a hot potatoe.

another non expert , but I believe that the Germany stamps means it was exported post WWI + before Mauser took over DWM - definitely non military commercial export -

It's a post WW1 'Commercial' (Non-Military contract or issue).
These are now commonly called 'Alphabet Lugers'

Originally the Commercial Lugers had their own serial numbering system that did not use a letter suffix. Just numbers.
It started with ser#1 in 1900 IIRC.
Commercial Luger ser#'s are stamped in some different positions on the pistol than Military contract Lugers are marked.


It was explained to me this way:
In post WW1 Germany (1920?) the Commercial Luger production ser# approached 6 digits,,that # of digits would not fit on the front edge of the Luger frame. 5 was the max.
They were in the ser#92,000 range when they decided to do something about the problem.
So it was decided that they would adopt the Military numbering system to the Commercial Lugers. That being using a Letter suffix to denote the 5th digit (each 10 thousand lot)
Since they were up to 9 (90 thousand) at that point, they started the Alphabet Luger numbering system by using suffix letter 'i',,the 9th letter of the Alphabet.
They started the ser#'s of the that first Alphabet range at 2000.
So the first full ser# of the Commercial Alphabet Luger was 2000i
(The 'i' being stamped below the 2000 on the front face of the frame of the pistol)

The numbering system continued that way on thru the alphabet. When the DWM plant was shutdown for Luger production and the machines moved to the Mauser Works (1930?), Mauser continued the ser#'s in sequence from DWM production.



There's always a few odd numbered ones that pop up and there have been a few late production 5 digit Commercials (pre Alphabet) that are numbered slightly higher than the 92,000 switch over point. Never say never.

I can't see the suffix in the pic. It will be a small case script letter. That along with the ser# should be enable you to track down the yr/mfg. Perhaps even closer from someone on one of the Luger Forums or someone here more involved with that stuff.

If you search the net for 'Alphabet Luger' or Alphabet Luger serial numbers dates of manufacture',,something like that, you may find the info you need to date it.

I've got a Weimar Era Luger book that probably lists them but it's packed away somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

The GERMANY marking on the left side was a commonly applied Export marking on pistols coming to the USA where there was a huge market.

Crown/N is normal commercial Nitro proof mark.
Side plate should be ser#'d on it's bottom underside edge. Visible w/o taking anything apart,,just look at the pistol upside down and at the side plate underside edge. Should have a (matching) ser#.
Bbl ser#'s on the underside near the frame along with a commercial Crown/N proof.
Might also have some #'s stamped there like 8.81 ect. That'd be the land dia of the bore if it is a 9mm cal. Probably will be something like 7.51 or close to that if a 30cal Luger.
Or just look at the hole in the end of the bbl.

To the OP:

What you have is a very nice commercial Luger made in the years following WW1. It should be chambered for the 7.65mm (.30 cal.) Luger round, as Germany was virtually prohibited from manufacturing larger calibers at that time. A careful measurement of the length of your barrel should show it to be 98mm, as that was the limit on pistol barrels imposed by the Treaty of Paris during this period. Luger barrels had been a standard of 100mm prior.

What you see explained by 2152hq, above, is good background detail of Luger production during this period.

This is a fairly common variety of Luger. It's worth $1,200 to $1,300 in today's market. I don't think the value will ever go down if it is properly cared for. A Luger is a wonderful, iconic pistol, and you should be glad to have this one. it looks to be in good shape for its near 100 years of age.

Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

Adding to 2151hq's explanation about the recurring serial numbers, I want to point out that the year of manufacturing is an important part of the serial number. Each year, Mauser started the serial numbers over again.

DWM moved the equipment to Mauser after being purchased by the Quandt group, together with a good number of pistol frames that were used until about 1935. Then Mauser came up with the new frame with the Mauser hump and improved metallurgy. The Mauser hump was requested by a military commission, so that the bolt for the toggle could not walk out.

Ludwig Loewe, born Louis Levy, the founder of DWM and FN in Belgium, was a German jew, philantropist and prominent industrialist. After his death, his family had owned DWM and Mauser until 1929. His family estate was claimed by the Nazi government and many family members died in concentration camps, some escaped to the U.S.

Good advice here. Not much else to add, except that most all of the military Lugers I’ve ever seen have partial serial numbers stamped in highly visible places on the exteriors of the serialized parts. Example: OP’s sideplate may have a partial serial stamped on the inside face of the part whereas a military sideplate will have one stamped on the outside, clearly visible without disassembly.

It’s a commercial gun. Looks pretty nice, too!!

Read carefully. English is not my first language but it is easy enough to learn and understand, I believe.

Mauser started with the serial numbers all over again each year. Nowhere had I stated that they had come up with that serial numbering with the suffix.

well known fact that Mauser did start the numbers over on the military models when they started date coding the upper receivers - personally own several BYF 42's with 2 + 3 digit serial numbers -

Just to make it clear. Are you saying that Mauser started the serial numbers from the begining at the start of every year?

English is not my first language either.

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yes , definitely on all German military issue that had the factory code + year code on forward receiver ring -

That information is contraditory to what I have learn. As far as I know military P.08 pistols from Mauser (and DWM for that matter) ran the numbers from 1 to 9999, after reaching 9999 they went back to 1 and added a letter and repeated the process going through the alphabet independent of the year. As far as I know only Erfurt restarted from 1 at the begining of the year.

Edit. And the P.08 made by Krieghoff just ran the numbers sequence and never went back to 1.

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never seen a German military issue Mauser P08 with a letter in serial number - only on some commercial + contract pistols -

Mauser started manufacturing 9mm Parabellum pistols with military proofing and date codes with K in 1934, followed by G in 1935, and the year from 1936 on. This was done to conceal the origin of the guns that were produced against the restrictions that the Versailles treaty had placed upon Germany.
DWM and Erfurt Arsenal produced over 2 million military Lugers together and
Mauser used the revolving numbers from 1934, when mass-production of the pistols started, to 1942 in large numbers.

My point is simple, there are many Lugers with the same serial numbers and suffixes out there, nine for the years and suffix range of the Mauser made pistols. Without the year, or code, the serial number is incomplete.

I got a neat book from Hallock & van de Kant that has exhaustive info compiled on the Mauser made guns. Unfortunately that book costs as much as a Luger.

Schürzenjäger,

Mauser marked all military pistols with the 1 - 9999 and suffix letter from 1934 with the G date on, when the Wehrmacht was expanded from 100,000 to 300,000 men.

I did not state that they did not have a suffix , just that I have never seen one - none of my BYF 42's have a suffix

Every byf 42 has a suffix. You will see the letter suffix on the front of the frame just below the serial number. The suffix is not stamped on the barrel, nor is it stamped on the side of the upper receiver.

Have a look at the front of your frame and report back!

Here's a photo of one I used to own, a byf 42, s/n 8961f:





Curl

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Curly
SWCA #2599; SWHF #626

only have two accessible this morning - one serial # 87x has a character that might be a letter of the German alphabet - the other serial # 863X has nothing except number - both are original finish + all matching - will try to dig out my others this weekend - really do not believe that it is a suffix , not located on same line as number , could it be an inspector or have other factory meaning -

The suffix is not in line with the serial number. it is below in the front of the frame.

The letters look like on this chart:


All P.08 Mausers from 1942 should have a suffix. They carried over from 1941 (the no suffix was late in 1941) and did not run the whole alphabet before production ended.

It is not impossible to have a no suffix 1942 mind you. in 1942 Mauser used up most of the parts they still had in inventory, so they could very well have assembled a pistol with parts made in 1941.

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Lugers were produced in three different countries by seven different manufactures.
Germany: DWM, Erfurt Arsenal, Simson, Krieghoff and Mauser.
England: Vickers, (For the Dutch).
Switzerland: Swiss model.
Calibers: 9mm Parabellum, 7.65 Parabellum, and 45acp for the US Pistol Trials.

clearly states on top that this is the opinion of Don Hallock author of Luger book -the Davis book clearly states that military serial numbers repeat except for the Krieghoff + Swiss models -

also documented are at least 6 experimental baby lugers produced in .32 + .380 acp - Mitchell Arms + the Luger Man also produced some here in the U.S.

Of course numbers repeat. They only go from 1 to 9999. that is why they had the sufixxes. In the first place.

Edit. If you read my edit on post # I already stated Krieghoff just ran all their serial numbers in sequence.

Swiss models are not P.08. And, all foreign contracts had their own numbering from 1 to the end of the contract. The exceptions are. The Portuguese contract of 5000 pistols in 1942 where the pistols were simply diverted from the German Army deliveries because they were closing shop for the P.08, and would not make aditional pistols (they fall in the "m" suffix of byf 42. And the 1942 Bulgarian contract for the very same reasons( they are in the "m" and the "n" suffix) .

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Well, Vickers wasn't exactly a "Luger producer". They just assembled DWM furnished parts and submited them to the British Proof House to make the 1922 Dutch contract possible. It was a way around the Versailles treaty that left everybody happy (except the French).

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Vickers was in the Luger business because a member of the Loewe family was on their board of directors.

according to the Aaron Davis , John Walter , + Schroeder books not all Mauser military models had a suffix - BYF 42 some had them some did not like mine - BYF 42 / KU none at all were stamped with a suffix - code 42 with year code 39 ,40 , 41 , + 42 were delivered with or with out a suffix -

Of course not all military have a suffix. Every time they reached 9999 on the z suffix they went back to 1 with no suffix. It happened several times during their production run. Last time it happened in Mauser production was late in 1941.

The "ku" lugers are a case apart. General consense is they were assembled in 1943 (probably by Krieghoff), using leftover Mauser mixed parts to complete the Luftwaffe contract.

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Krieghoff was exclusive supplier to the Luftwaffe because Goering had a vested financial interest in the company - the KU was the coastal flying service originally not part of Luftwaffe [ during pilot shortages some were put in Luftwaffe units ] - the KU's were produced in both 1941 + 1942 - no documented evidence that they were assembled by Kreighoff , the markings on them that are often credited to Kreighoff were actually Kustenfliegerstafflen proof markings -

There is no hard evidence about the Ku Lugers. Only speculation.

The known facts are. There were about 5000 of them. They indeed don't have suffix numbers. They have S/42; 42 and byf marked toggles.

And... I was convinced that all had 41 over the chamber.

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