Early production Winchester M1 carbine

I acquired an addition to my USGI M1 carbine collection. This one is a nice very early production M1 carbine manufactured by Winchester, which is the company that designed the M1 carbine.

Aside from the serial number, early Winchester carbines have particular features that are interesting. Winchester was the only manufacturer that had a prominent "flat belly" on the bottom of the stock in the forearm area in front of the magazine well. The stock on this one is in very nice condition with appropriate acceptance markings on the buttstock and a "W" inside the sling well. It was originally manufactured as a high wood stock but that area was prone to cracking so they were redesigned to a low wood configuration on the production line. The vast majority of high wood stocks were eventually modified to low wood configuration and this one appears to have been so modified.

Another early Winchester feature is the dark DuLite finish that Winchester used before converting to a Parkerized finish, which was usually a bit lighter in color than DuLite. This one also has the early separate spring tube type receiver instead of the later integral drilled hole for the recoil spring.

It has what looks to be an original Winchester marked barrel and an early barrel band. It does not appear to have ever had a bayonet style barrel band as when those have been installed and then removed it leaves a shadow or wear mark on the barrel. This one has no indication of a bayonet lug shadow. The trigger housing, hammer, bolt, and slide are all "W" Winchester marked

Interestingly, the only non-Winchester marked component is the rear sight. An early Winchester would have been manufactured with a L type flip sight, but this one has a later milled adjustable rear sight that has Inland Division of General Motors markings, which is obviously a replacement.

The rear sight sends to me a rebuild at some point in its life. If all that was changed was the rear sight you are lucky. I have only seen one carbine that was completely correct as I found it. The S/N was 7,27X,XXX. I use to collect these back before the "Let's make them all correct" folks got in the act. Nice looking piece.

AJ said:

The rear sight sends to me a rebuild at some point in its life. If all that was changed was the rear sight you are lucky. I have only seen one carbine that was completely correct as I found it. The S/N was 7,27X,XXX. I use to collect these back before the "Let's make them all correct" folks got in the act. Nice looking piece.

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Nice looking carbine. Taking the contrarian view, I've come across many milsurp collectors who detest the simple L sights you find on certain M1 carbines and Enfield No4 rifles. First thing they do is buy an adjustable sight and slap it on. The lack of other changes makes me think a previous civilian owner fitted that sight.

The stock looks sanded, too. Would the CMP have done that? The good news is that after sanding it didn't suffer the indignity of being poly'd or slathered in too much tung oil.

I know it makes the OCD types cringe, but I have a healthy suspicion of milsurps that are too clean with no nicks or dings. Of course, the CMP had newly made stocks available, but they are usually pretty easy to spot. About the only other milsurps that get a pass on that are Finnish M39 Mosins, because it's well known that the Finns built a whole bunch of new stocks for them post-WWII. These were later sold over here and are handy for undoing the butchery of Bubba.

LVSteve said:

Nice looking carbine. Taking the contrarian view, I've come across many milsurp collectors who detest the simple L sights you find on certain M1 carbines and Enfield No4 rifles. First thing they do is buy an adjustable sight and slap it on. The lack of other changes makes me think a previous civilian owner fitted that sight.

The stock looks sanded, too. Would the CMP have done that? The good news is that after sanding it didn't suffer the indignity of being poly'd or slathered in too much tung oil.

I know it makes the OCD types cringe, but I have a healthy suspicion of milsurps that are too clean with no nicks or dings. Of course, the CMP had newly made stocks available, but they are usually pretty easy to spot. About the only other milsurps that get a pass on that are Finnish M39 Mosins, because it's well known that the Finns built a whole bunch of new stocks for them post-WWII. These were later sold over here and are handy for undoing the butchery of Bubba.

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LVSteve.
I concur, finish on barrel not enough wear compared to the front sight. Never saw a stock without a few dings. I bought three of the initial offering from CMP as I was a member of the Carbine Club at the time. None looked that good as far as the stock goes. Better pictures and more close ups may help. Still a nice carbine and worth about $1200 at todays prices, I'd guess.

I'm not a collector and know little about these guns, but for a gun that has great looks, is fun to shoot and is reasonably accurate, it's hard to beat a the M-1 carbine.

I had a couple of them for years, and eventually sold them but it took a long time for the new to wear off, unlike the AR15s I tried many years later. I can't see an advantage for aperture-sighted ARs offer over aperture-sighted M-1 carbines at distances to 200 yards or so, but we all have different tastes.

I have reason to suspect this one is one of the 120K released to NRA members in 1964-ish. I purchased it from an estate and the son recalls shooting it with his father in the late 1960's and then it sat in the back of his safe for at least 50 years.

I agree with LVSteve that it's possible the owner swapped out the rear sight, mainly because the sight does not appear to be staked in place. If it is indeed an NRA released gun they weren't the collectors they are today and replacing the old L type flip sight with the "newer advanced" adjustable sight was quite common back then.

As for the stock, I've refurbished dozens of carbine and Garand stocks and this one does not feel like it's been sanded. It's actually the flat belly stock that caught my eye and caused me to bid on it.

Faulkner said:

I have reason to suspect this one is one of the 120K released to NRA members in 1964-ish. I purchased it from an estate and the son recalls shooting it with his father in the late 1960's and then it sat in the back of his safe for at least 50 years.

I agree with LVSteve that it's possible the owner swapped out the rear sight, mainly because the sight does not appear to be staked in place. If it is indeed an NRA released gun they weren't the collectors they are today and replacing the old L type flip sight with the "newer advanced" adjustable sight was quite common back then.

As for the stock, I've refurbished dozens of carbine and Garand stocks and this one does not feel like it's been sanded. It's actually the flat belly stock that caught my eye and caused me to bid on it.

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Send CMP a letter with the S/N and a check for $25.00. They will confirm if it was sold by them and when. A friend just got a confirmation on a Gap Letter IHC that he had picked up at an auction. If the rear sight is the only piece that has been changed then you have a rare bird. I have my Uncle's Carbine that he paid $17.50 + shipping for in the mid 60's. My Aunt gifted it to me after he passed. It will stay in the family at least until I pass.

Stocks are very blonde. My Dad’s M1 from Korean War is very dark brown.

There were over 6 million carbines made not counting the spare stocks produced as well. I've refurbished dozens of them and can attest they come in all shades. Often times a dark stock only means they've been oiled more through the years.

Here's what a black walnut USGI carbine stock looks like after I've stripped all the oil off of it.
Below it is a stock that has been cleaned and re-oiled with a number of hand applied boiled linseed oil.

You mean like these?

Nice find.
This does not look sanded to me---

Faulkner said:

.... I've refurbished dozens of them ....

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Memory lane. My friend Vern was a carbine wizard. I miss him.

Just about all of the M1 carbine that were issued in Europe or the Pacific during WWII had flip sight, narrow barrel band, and push button safety.
The very early Winchester and Inland stocks had the I cut oiler slot. All of the prime contractors delivered carbines with high wood in the slide area until the change order to modify the stock design was issued. The low wood modification and the wide band with out a bayonet lug were the first visible changes. Carbines with these changes made it to Europe later in the war. They show up in photos taken during the late winter and early spring of 1945. The first carbines with the adjustable rear sights began to appear around the same time. After the adjustable rear sights were available a quantity of them were sent Europe for installation on in service carbines. Therefore it is always possible that a carbine with all early features except for the rear sight left the service like this and is not a change made later.

The Winchester stocks are easy to spot with their unique forend shape. I have an arsenal rebuild that has one of these stocks with the hi wood relieved.

the only carbine I have, I bought at collector's show in the early Obama years. "44 inland, push button safety (and it is indeed easy to drop the mag when pushing the safety), no bayonet lug, rear adjustable sight, round bolt, and I have never bothered to research the other re-build parts on my rifle. From what the seller told me, I think mine was an early DCM "transitional" rile, likely bought by a vet, whose son sold it to the collector when the vet passed. I think it had a new barrel installed, because when I got it and ran a patch thru the barrel, it came out without a spec of fouling. I doubt it was ever shot by the person who acquired it first from the DCM. Paid $600 for it then.

It is an easy cartridge to reload and just a fun rifle to shoot. I have an assortment of new and original mags for it.

SF VET

SF VET said:

the only carbine I have, I bought at collector's show in the early Obama years. "44 inland, push button safety (and it is indeed easy to drop the mag when pushing the safety), no bayonet lug, rear adjustable sight, round bolt, and I have never bothered to research the other re-build parts on my rifle. From what the seller told me, I think mine was an early DCM "transitional" rile, likely bought by a vet, whose son sold it to the collector when the vet passed. I think it had a new barrel installed, because when I got it and ran a patch thru the barrel, it came out without a spec of fouling. I doubt it was ever shot by the person who acquired it first from the DCM. Paid $600 for it then.

It is an easy cartridge to reload and just a fun rifle to shoot. I have an assortment of new and original mags for it.

SF VET

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What is marked on the barrel behind the front sight? Should be the manufacturer and a date.

AJ said:

What is marked on the barrel behind the front sight? Should be the manufacturer and a date.

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It could be stamped with the manufacturer and a date. Not all manufacturers dated their barrels, and some, like Inland, stopped dating them at some point.

That's the neat thing about M1 carbines, seems nothing about them is definitive.

Puller said:

It could be stamped with the manufacturer and a date. Not all manufacturers dated their barrels, and some, like Inland, stopped dating them at some point.

That's the neat thing about M1 carbines, seems nothing about them is definitive.

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The OP stated it is an early Winchester. From S/N 1,000,000 to S/N 1,030,000 the barrels were dated. After S/N 1,030,000 they were undated. So if it is an early Winchester Carbine it should be dated.

handejector said:

Nice find.
This does not look sanded to me---

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Are you implying that it was a shallow/inconsistent stamp from the gitgo?

mine per above has a barrel marked/dated Underwood 1944. SF VET