Here's some .38 Special +P ammo I had not seen before...(pic)...

[stiab]

I found this box of Remington +P .38 Special a couple months ago, and did a double take when noticed it as RNL. I have a bunch of Remington ammo in all sorts of configurations, but don't recall ever seeing +P with these bullet heads before. Have you guys seen it and I was just missing it?

It will be included in the Old -vs- New .38 Special ammo test coming up in the next month or so.

 

[Treeman]

Bullet heads? How about bullet or bulllet style or bullet shape or bullet configuration or meplat? (Sorry to criticize but terminology does matter.) I don't recall seeng round nose lead factory +P ammo. Given the sorry state of current .38 special loadings it is probably equivalent the standard factory load of 1950..... or 1920 or 1960.

 

[stiab]

Bullet heads? How about bullet or bulllet style or bullet shape or bullet configuration or meplat?

No thanks, I'll stick with bullet heads. Google it and you'll see that "bullet heads" are available from Midway and many other ammo component providers.

 

[Treeman]

Gotcha
bullet heads - definition of bullet heads by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[Spotteddog]

Does that product number correspond to anything currently in production? The only thing I can think of, is it was an early "range only" variant? Sort of like the Blazer FMJ R/N +P stuff currently?

 

[stiab]

Treeman, your link gives a definition for "bullet headed", not bullet heads. Anyway, that's two of us now who have not seen this ammo before.

Spotteddog, you could be correct. Also, since my original post I have found some on an ammo recall list that apparently dates it back to 1987...

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/Ammunition Recall Index.htm

 

[bmcgilvray]

"Bullet head" is a British term as I've learned in conversation with British shooters.

 

[Erich]

stiab, we used to stock those in the late '80s, IIRC, when I worked in a gun shop. We tried to keep pretty much everything by the major makers in stock. I don't recall ever selling any of them.

I look forward to the results of your shooting tests.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

stiab, we used to stock those in the late '80s, IIRC, when I worked in a gun shop. We tried to keep pretty much everything by the major makers in stock. I don't recall ever selling any of them.

I look forward to the results of your shooting tests.

Me, too. I have exactly 12 of them, orphaned (from their box).

 

[Treeman]

Stiab,-That was my first hit from googling bullet heads. I thought it rather funny and apropos. -In any case-Peace be unto you. Let us know how the +P LRNs shoot.

 

[reerc]

Stiab,-That was my first hit from googling bullet heads. I thought it rather funny and apropos. -In any case-Peace be unto you. Let us know how the +P LRNs shoot.

Thanks for that post, Treeman. I think its more important for us to get along with each other here, than for everyone to use exactly the same vernacular.

 

[stiab]

Thanks Treeman and all who replied. Here's the old ammo I have so far for the test. I have postponed it trying to get additional examples, but the ammo shortage has made it much more difficult. Some folks who used to not be interested in the old ammo are buying it now because it may be all that is available. I'd really like to have some 38-44, but haven't gotten that lucky. I'll go ahead with the test when the weather cools down enough to stay at the range all day, and post the results here and on the Sig Forum.

 

[HayesGreener]

Rnl +p

There was a time in the 60's and 70's and even into the early 80's when it was popularly held by the liberal media that hollow point ammo was discriminatory against certain segments of the population because they were shot by the police at a disproportionate rate. Therefore in the normal self-serving manner of politicians many of the larger cities would not allow their police to carry hollow points OR magnum calibers. Some agencies were allowed the .357 revolver but the officers had to carry .38 RNL ammo and it was a firing offense to do otherwise. Standard round nose lead bullets from standard .38 special loads commonly bounced off things like windshields, car doors, head rests, zippers, leather jackets, etc. Therefore it made sense for police departments that were stuck with .38 special guns to buy their round nose lead bullet .38's with a little something extra. My department was never subjected to such nonsense but neighboring agencies were, and +P RNL was one of the workarounds the cops used. Some officers hanloaded their own "Special" loads in issue cases. Another way was to simply stop at the first opportunity after leaving the station and change ammo, then change back at end of watch. We had fun ribbing fellow officers about whether their gun was loaded with official ammo or "real" ammo when we encountered them on the street. So there was a police market for such a thing, and perhaps a civilian market as well.

 

[Mike6735]

Hayes-

I have a box of the same rnl+p made by Federal from about the same period so maybe all of the big three were making the stuff for the reasons you mentioned. Your explanation certainly makes sense.

All this begs the question- was the +p version a real improvement from the standpoint of stopping power, and did both rounds use identical bullets by each manufacturer?

Mike

 

[stiab]

Hayes-
Your explanation certainly makes sense.

I agree with Mike that the explanation by Hayes makes a lot of sense, i.e. trying to give LEO a little extra bump in effectiveness w/o the hollow points.

 

[sigp220.45]

According to the guy in this thread:

2007 .38 Special +P versus 1977 .38 Special +P - THR

that load does 1007 fps out of his six inch Colt.

 

[stiab]

According to the guy in this thread:

2007 .38 Special +P versus 1977 .38 Special +P - THR

that load does 1007 fps out of his six inch Colt.

Good find, thanks. The same person posted the same info about that load in the link below on this forum, see page 2...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/65553-ammo-test-old-vs-new-38-super-2.html

 

[bmcgilvray]

I'd forgotten about that Remington load but do remember purchasing some of that perhaps in the late 70s or early 80s. Thanks for posting the photos.

 

[HayesGreener]

I agree with Mike that the explanation by Hayes makes a lot of sense, i.e. trying to give LEO a little extra bump in effectiveness w/o the hollow points.

The advantage of a speedier bullet was penetration, not only of the bad guy but also the things between him and the officer. .357 magnum would have done the trick but then a lot of agencies wouldn't allow .357 magnum cartridges. When the bad guys started carrying automatic weapons in emerging drug wars of the 80's it became clear how stupid the argument against hollow points and magnum loads for the police was and the argument faded. No doubt it will come up again in the future.

 

[BUFF]

The ammo makers got creative in trying to give law enforcement better stopping ammo when restricted politically, such as during bans on hollow point bullets and .357 Magnums.

The +P+ or Plus-P-Plus .38 Special is a good example of this. Note that there are no SAAMI specs for the +P+. At times, many of the manufactureres will only load and sell it to a particular agency's specifications, i.e. a certain bullet to a certain velocity out of a certain pistol model/barrel length. +P+ .38 Special often was intended to be shot only in .357 Magnum revolvers, as it developed almost .357 Magnum pressures and velocities, so the agency could say to critical city council persons and the press, "Sure, we use Magnum revolvers, but we only use .38 Special ammunition in them. The Magnum guns are stronger."