Anyone here load for the heavy rifles?

[fredj338]

Heavy rifle depends on which side of the pond you are on. Here, anything over a 375h&h is a heavy rifle. In Africa, heavy rifles start @ 458winmag & go up. I used to load for the 458lott, sold it, too much gun for me. I have been loading & hunting w/ a 404jeffery now for about 3yrs, love it. Full power 45-70 too.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Perazzi and Leonard,

I appreciate your responses and I very much agree with both of you.I've seriously considered selling both my 416 Rem and 460 WBY.I will keep my 458 Win because of it's size/efficiency.The purpose behind most of the various 45 wildcats like the Lott was due to poorly constucted factory loads in the Win that resulted in squibb loads and etc.It didn't take well to being stored in hot sheds in Africa,etc and the powder would actually solidifly which damaged it's reputation.In spite of the criticism of the case being shortened,it nonetheless accomplished (as originally conceived)everything the 450 thru 470 Nitro family of cartridges did which is what the Win designers intended.I'm sure that you're aware that the original 450 Nitro,etc class of cartridges had (on average) an "actual"velocity of about 100 to 150 fps less than advertized.The Winchester(although the case size is not impressive),fully equals them when properly loaded.Many don't realize that Jack Lott's reason for necking out the 375 case to 45 was to increase case capacity which made things less problematic in terms of pressure,etc.Stepping the velocity over 2150 fps did not seem to be his reason.My 458 Win loads easily break 2150 with the 500 and within perfectly safe pressures(even in hot temps).

I definately digressed and didn't mean for that paragraph to be so lengthy but it leads to an explanation of why I will keep the 458 Win.When one wants a powerful rifle,he wants larger than 45(in my opinion).I would be very pleased to have and use a 500 Jeffery.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

canoe-

Jack designed the Lott case, not to ease pressures, but to reach what he (and most African pros) deem the ideal velocity for penetration and performance with a heavy. That is 2400 FPS. He designed it after a buffalo tossed him in the late '50's, and almost killed him while he was using his .458 Winchester. You are spot on as to the reason why early .458 ammo had trouble though. The round is designed to give 2400 FPS, while at the same time allow the use in an emergency of .458 Winchester ammo with complete safety. There is an actual neck to both cases, so it is not simply a matter of using a shorter case in a longer chamber like the .38/.357 etc. I have used both in mine with complete satisfaction as far as accuracy goes. You do loose a little velocity with the Winnie round in the longer chamber, but that is to be expected.

I have many, many articles written by Jack Lott, including a few specialty issue volumes that are written exclusively by Jack Lott. I have one article here (though I have looked for it in the recent past, and couldn't find it) that he wrote specifically about why he designed the round. It was the article that made me go ahead and have mine made up. Most all of his articles are either in G&A, or Petersen's Hunting.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Gun4Fun,

The 458 Win did not turn out to be what the designers had in mind as to the factory loads available for several years.Many did not even reach 2000fps from the muzzle.Properly loaded,it does very well but that is all very subjective.Isn't it?

Perhaps Jack Lott did load the round up to it's true potential at some point.From various sources,I was under the impression that the pressure,powder compaction issues were his main concern.Being an experimenter,I have no doubts that he expanded.Perhaps velocity was also an issue.I see no reason to argue the point.

When one reads his accounts of the buffalo/458 Win incident,a rather curious thing is noted.First of all,his shot placement was poor (by his own admission) and secondly,the bullet was poorly constructed and did not perform as intended.Neither of these have anything to do with the cartridge.

Debating about 2100 fps vs 2400 fps could go on and on.It goes without saying that one is more than the other.I quite agree that 2400 is better.It's all a matter of opinion but personally I'd rather have a larger caliber when a heavy is to be used.To each,his own.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Gun4Fun,

It's occured to me that you may have mis-took my meaning about the 45's that are hotter than the Win.Perhaps you thought I was denigrading them in some way.Not so.I was simply trying to convey my reason for sticking to the short Winchester round.This is not contradicting myself although at a glance,it may appear to.

I was,instead,merely stating my personal preference for larger bores when "more" is desired.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

NO,
I understood you, and have no truck with your choice either.

I was just trying to pass along some info I have. I have wanted a .505 Gibbs for a very long time, and was going to have one built, but I can order a new CZ550 chambered for it now. I have an article here by Jack Lott in which he lists some loads that are up to the true potential of the case capicity of that round. Holy freakin' smoke!! They are puttin' out 10,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy using 600 grain Barnes bullets. The gun was built by Ryan Breeding, and the article is in the February 1989 issue of G&A.

I also want a 500 Nitro double for these large fox squirrels we have running amuck here. That is probably my top priority for my next biggie.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I drool over a good double in 577 Nitro Express but it will never be.Way too much for my pocketbook.Care to share the load data you have for the Gibbs?A single in 8 bore would be nice.

 

[Leonard]

The 458 Winchester has a poor reputation for penetration in Africa amongst most pro hunters. While it will easily go threw a buffalo side to side it lacks penetration on raking shots.

I have experienced excellent penetration with the big English cartridges for example my 475 # 2 Jeffrey @ 2150 fps which from my experience is about the minimum velocity for a projectile of about 500 grains. If you are serious about being able to deal with all potentials a 500 grain solid at no less than 2150 fps and ideally around 2300 fps, no more than about 2400 fps.

If you use heavier bullets you will require less velocity as momentum kicks in I have driven two 700 grain .50 caliber bullets ass to lungs on a charging (long story) jumbo at about 1850 fps.

Len

 

[DonD]

The 458 Winchester has a poor reputation for penetration in Africa amongst most pro hunters. While it will easily go threw a buffalo side to side it lacks penetration on raking shots. Len

While I have no personal experience, everything I've read is that the stories of poor penetration with the .458 Win are old news. New stuff works just fine and the Win. Mag is the most commonly seen PH gun.

I doubt that stuff like Hornady's very tough jacketed solid ammo (which runs 2175 fps out of my Ruger No. 1) would be lacking in penetration. Adding to that Dick Metcalf of Shooting Times recently shot a buffalo in the shoulder with a .500 S&W Mag, destroying the shoulder and nearly exiting the animal in the haunch. Adequate penetration by any standard and I would think that the .458 could do as well with double the energy and less frontal area.

Personally, if someone were to give me a choice of any gun as a gift (within reason), I'd take a Searcy in .577 NE. I think a well built British style double is the most elegant gun ever made. Don

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Don,
read through this. It's quite eye opening as far as penetration goes.

Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I drool over a good double in 577 Nitro Express but it will never be.Way too much for my pocketbook.Care to share the load data you have for the Gibbs?A single in 8 bore would be nice.

I know right where the article is, and I'll dig it out later on today.

 

[Leonard]

Don

I am not up to date on what the 458 will do with newer powders. If you can safely get a 500 grain bullet up to about 2150- 2200 fps it would perform well on the largest game animals.

If I were looking for a 458 caliber I would probably go for one based on a full length 375 case as pressure will probably be lower under some African hunting conditions this could be a factor.

It has been my experience if you want to be in control of a situation when things go bad you want something that will penetrate fully and drill as straight of a hole as possible. Bullet construction and design is also critical and experience has shown that a blunt nose will drill straighter hole than a round nose that can more easily be be steered off course.

Len

 

[DonD]

Don,
read through this. It's quite eye opening as far as penetration goes.

Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests

No surprises, the .500 Linebaugh (which cannot equal the .500 S&W velocity wise) penetrated 57" of paper, an inch more than the .600 NE. The big revolvers can do a lot of damage.

There is an aspect of big revolver penetration that I have never heard an adequate explantion of. Frequently, big heavy slugs will penetrate as much or more at lower velocities even though when hard enough Brinnel wise, the same slugs at higher velocities don't deform much and penetrate less. Strange. Don

 

[DonD]

If I were looking for a 458 caliber I would probably go for one based on a full length 375 case as pressure will probably be lower under some African hunting conditions this could be a factor.

Len

Don't doubt that this might be a prudent outlook. Don

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

No surprises, the .500 Linebaugh (which cannot equal the .500 S&W velocity wise) penetrated 57" of paper, an inch more than the .600 NE. The big revolvers can do a lot of damage.

There is an aspect of big revolver penetration that I have never heard an adequate explantion of. Frequently, big heavy slugs will penetrate as much or more at lower velocities even though when hard enough Brinnel wise, the same slugs at higher velocities don't deform much and penetrate less. Strange. Don

Don, I am no ballistician, but I have played around enough over the years to pick up on a few things. I believe that the phenomena you are talking about has something to do with the fact that once a bullet reaches certain speeds, it simply can't push whatever medium it is going through aside quik enough to acheive maximum penetration, before running out of steam.


I posted the above link because in one of your ealier posts you had remarked about a .500 S&W penetrating on buff, but thought the .458 could do as well. It doesn't always work out that way.

The .500 Linebaugh may have just the right balance of bullet weight and velocity to reach maximum penetration in .50 cal.

If you read the whole thing, you'll see that with it's best load, the .475 Linebaugh outpenetrated the .500 Linebaugh even, and by a noticable amount. There's a happy medium in there somewhere. It's too bad we can't all shoot enough ammo, at enough real game, enough times, to be more authoratative in our recomendations to those who ask for advice.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

canoe-
Here is what is listed in the article. I was off on the energy listed in this article as being 10,000 ft lbs. I haven't read it for quite a while and was going off memory. (not a good idea apparently) The 10,000 ft lb figure came from an article by Ross Seyfried on the 585 Nyati that he designed, and wrote up in the G&A, December 1991 issue.

600 grian Barnes soft nose
152 grains of IMR 4831
instrumental velocity=2578 fps.
ft lbs of energy=7500

700 grain Barnes soft nose
132 grains of IMR 4831
instrumental velocity=2260 fps
ft lbs of energy=8400

The above loads are listed on page 100 of the February issue, 1989 Guns and Ammo. The standard factory loading for the Gibbs was a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps.

 

[DonD]

Don, I am no ballistician, but I have played around enough over the years to pick up on a few things. I believe that the phenomena you are talking about has something to do with the fact that once a bullet reaches certain speeds, it simply can't push whatever medium it is going through aside quik enough to acheive maximum penetration, before running out of steam.

I suspect that is a good explanation.

Regardless of the explanation, one thing is certain, the big revolvers are impressive performers. Don

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Gentlemen,

Being a forum that leans very strongly towards handgun use and also where there is a strong affection for 45/70 class rifles,it seems almost inevitable that this would happen.

There is no doubt that Garrett and Linebaugh have a big following and any criticism of them is likely to be received very poorly.I personally have a big issue with their testing methods as well as their agenda.The last thing I want is for this to evolve into a debate/argument over that and so will comment no more about it.

This is not meant to anger anyone.I would simply like to ask that the issue of heavy rifles remain a discussion about heavy rifles.Big handguns are not without merit but should be discussed seperately.I have no control over anything anyone posts but simply ask that you do this out of courtesy to me.Thank you.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

canoe-

Maybe you missed my point with the link. Linebaugh tests a lot of heavy rifles along with the handguns, and they are shown in those tests. He himself, never claimed them to be scientific. Just an interesting comparison between many different rounds, when fired at the exact same medium.

The fact that men I respect particpated in the test goes a long way with me. John Taffin is first to mind.

The tests themselves show what one can expect, at least to some degree, from the heavy rifle. The fact that a similar caliber handgun firing a similar weight bullet, can penetrate as well or better than many heavy rifles, paralells what the .458 can, or might do, when compared to other large bore rifles, when caliber, bullet weight and design etc., are all taken into consideration.

I have no desire to redirect the conversation of this thread, so I will comment no further in it.

I apologize if you feel we may have caused any thread drift.

 

[460Guy]

I reload .416 Rigby, .458 Lott and just started loading .460 S&W Mag. Big bores should come with a warning about being very addictive.