What has happened to the .357 Magnum?

[David LaPell]

I have been doing some research on the .357 for another project of mine, and it seems to me that the .357 Magnum, much like other rounds, is not what it used to be. I was going through my old loading manuals, and to look at what those old loadings used to be, the stuff being churned out now is darned anemic.
According to the Lyman 41st Edition printed in 1957, a load of 15.5 grains of 2400 for a max loading gave a velocity of 1538 fps (no barrel length was listed).
Now take this into account vs the current 158 grain semi-jacketed soft point (Remington) moving at an advertised 1235 fps. This is nearly a 300 fps difference! Granted even in that old manual, the data is listed for use only in large frame revolvers, so no Model 19's for this stuff.
What about the 125 grain hollow point, like the Remington Golden Saber, long touted as THE defense load for the .357 Magnum?
The advertised muzzle velocity for that round is 1220 fps. Even Lyman's Pistol & Revolver Handbook, 3rd Edition from 2004 lists various handloads for the 125 grain jacketed hollow point for various powders from 1350-1500 fps for the max loadings, well above the listed velocity for the Golden Saber. The barrel length used for the loads in the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook was 4-inches.
So what has happened to the once mighty .357 Magnum? Is it because the quality of the guns has gone down? Are people more recoil sensitive? Personally I can only imagine a 1,400 fps load out of a J-frame revolver being quite snappy. But maybe this is why the .357 is not the hunting round it used to be? With variations of 300 fps in some loads, I would imagine that would make a difference on a whitetail deer. It makes one wonder what a 1,500 fps 158 grain cast SWC out of a 6 inch barreled revolver would do on a whitetail. It might be worth exploring.

 

[mtime7]

for full power loads that I shoot out of my 6" 28 I use 158swc with 14.5 grns of 2400 and they certainly feel more powerful than any of the factory ammo I have shot.. But I havenent done any reasearch on the matter.. My inclination is that the companies are trying to be safe and keep people far away from max loadings

 

[Dragon88]

The Golden Saber is no longer the go-to defense load. Better options exist, and that Rem load as now know as a light 357 for people that want just a little more than 38 +P.

SD ammo hasn't gotten weaker, it has gotten smarter. The informed shooting public today wants less recoil, less flash, and a better expanding hollow point that doesn't need to be pushed to ridiculous velocities to work. Velocity is not the only factor to consider now that we have better bullets. Some of the SD ammo out now, especially the PDX-1 and Critical Defense lines, are probably some of the best engineered SD ammo ever. Sure legal liability has watered down some things, such as 10mm ammo. But being a handloader, none of that affects me.

 

[APS]

The Remington Golden Saber .357 is a medium velocity loading and never was full power. Remington and Federal both have 1450fps 125gr. SJHP loads that you are referring to as "THE" load. In general though the 158gr loads are little toned down now as is common in the cartridge world. Probably due to perceived wear on guns. I think that 45 Hardball isn't as hot as it originally was either.

A 1,500 fps 158 grain cast SWC will probably do the same thing as one going 1200 fps, penetrate both sides of a whitetail with small holes on both sides. A guy on another forum killed a whitetail with the .38+P SWCHP. It penetrated all the way to the other side of the chest and stopped under the skin.

 

[GF]

I think what your noticing in factory ammo is the same marketing ploy as the "+P" myth.

Decrease the velocity, change the ogive of the bullet, package the rounds in boxes of 20 and call them "Laser Beam Black Death Talons!!!"

Shooters will beat a path to your door to buy.

Reloaders are the last ones to accually study ballistics and know the difference between performance and Mierda de toro.

GF

 

[rburg]

The same thing has happened to the guns. There was a time when you needed an N frame gun that weighed about 48 ounces to handle the fire and brimstone from a full house 357 load. Today you can buy a 10 oz revolver chambered for the same loads. I also recall that the advertising indicated that the recoil from the early magnums would take your arm off if you weren't careful. Now I seem to think shooting a full house gunload or two will break your wrist or hammer your palm into a throbbing mess.

Then there is the issue of light quality guns. I'm not even so sure the M19 is up to the hammering you'd get from continued full house loads. Worse, the M19 uses quality parts. I'm not so sure of some of the other 357s I've seen at gun shops and shows.

Then there's the issue of optimistic numbers published in advertising manuals. Often achieved by the use of solid breach pressure barrels 10" long or so.

For fun, I'd suggest you haunt the gun shows looking for older 357 ammo to test fire over your own Chronograph. See what kind of numbers those actually achieve. Then test some of the current production loads to see how they perform. Keep the playing field level.

There are those who felt S&W and the ammo companies took a big risk back in the day when they marketed 38/44 HD ammo. It would fit into and fire in all the old Spanish knock off revolvers. Often with disastrous results. Back in the day, the only 357 handguns you could obtain were quality. Better still, they were brand new. But over the last 3/4s century some aren't still pristine, and some never were.

We've been bombarded with comments that S&W 44s aren't up to much abuse at all. We're told we need a Ruger or Freedom Arms revolver to even fire the overloads being sold by some makers. It doesn't take skill to pour too much powder into a case. Really, we have no idea what pressures some loads achieve. Nor the real velocities.

 

[Sully]

The same thing has happened to the guns. There was a time when you needed an N frame gun that weighed about 48 ounces to handle the fire and brimstone from a full house 357 load. Today you can buy a 10 oz revolver chambered for the same loads. I also recall that the advertising indicated that the recoil from the early magnums would take your arm off if you weren't careful. Now I seem to think shooting a full house gunload or two will break your wrist or hammer your palm into a throbbing mess.

Then there is the issue of light quality guns. I'm not even so sure the M19 is up to the hammering you'd get from continued full house loads. Worse, the M19 uses quality parts. I'm not so sure of some of the other 357s I've seen at gun shops and shows.

Then there's the issue of optimistic numbers published in advertising manuals. Often achieved by the use of solid breach pressure barrels 10" long or so.

For fun, I'd suggest you haunt the gun shows looking for older 357 ammo to test fire over your own Chronograph. See what kind of numbers those actually achieve. Then test some of the current production loads to see how they perform. Keep the playing field level.

There are those who felt S&W and the ammo companies took a big risk back in the day when they marketed 38/44 HD ammo. It would fit into and fire in all the old Spanish knock off revolvers. Often with disastrous results. Back in the day, the only 357 handguns you could obtain were quality. Better still, they were brand new. But over the last 3/4s century some aren't still pristine, and some never were.

We've been bombarded with comments that S&W 44s aren't up to much abuse at all. We're told we need a Ruger or Freedom Arms revolver to even fire the overloads being sold by some makers. It doesn't take skill to pour too much powder into a case. Really, we have no idea what pressures some loads achieve. Nor the real velocities.

Man if that aint the truth!!

 

[Alk8944]

David,

There are several factors in the reduced performance of .357 Magnum, and it doesn't really have anything to do with "dumbing down" the loads.

At the time the cartridge was originally introduced there were two things still very common. First was jacketed bullets were unheard of for revolver cartridges, lead was the norm. Second was that cartridges were still commonly tested in actual firearms of the type the cartridge was intended for. Typically the longest standard barrels were selected for determining best (read most impressive) performance to be published. So, the most likely barrel length used would have been an 8 3/4" S&W .357 Magnum.

Let's look at relative performance. As you noted, published velocity for 15.5 gr 2400 behind a 158 LSWC will generate 1525+/- FPS, and it does this from an 8 3/8" barrel revolver. Actually, 15.3 gr will do this, and loads have been published up to 16.0 gr. I have chronographed loads up to 16.0 gr, and there is virtually no improvement in velocity over 15.3 gr.

The first thing that has reduced velocities is the widespread use of jacketed bullets. Using the maximum listed loads of 2400 from the older Hercules/Alliant manual, 15.3 for lead and 15.2 for jacketed the results I have obtained from my 8 3/8" Model 27 are Lead 1515-1530 FPS, and jacketed bullets 1240-1285 FPS. That is a loss of 230-290 FPS from, basically, nothing more than changing bullet type! The highest velocity I ever observed with a 158 jacketed bullet was 1335 FPS. Note that these were all fired in the same revolver!

The second thing is rarely does anyone shoot and chronograph an 8 3/8" revolver. Most data you see is what did someones 6", 4" or 2 1/2" barrel did. Well, I can show you that by test samples shot at the same time, with the same batch of ammunition, in different barrel lengths. Just a small sample, using the 158 JHP/2400:

Hdy 158 XTP-HP, 15.2/2400
8 3/8" 1283 FPS
6" 1233 FPS
2 1/8" 1067 FPS (640-1)

Speer 158 GDHP, 15.3/2400
8 3/8" 1240 FPS
5" 1140 FPS

158 LSWCGC RCBS, 15.2/2400 (This batch of powder ran a little slow)
8 3/8" 1504 FPS
6" 1405 FPS
2 1/8" 1157 FPS (640-1)

Note that an earlier lot of powder gave 1525 and 1529 FPS from the 8 3/8" barrel. These were all shot in various Model 27 S&Ws except as noted.

I have a lot more, with other powders, but these are representative of the classic full power .357 Magnum load that delivers original velocity with full length barrel and lead bullets. So, if you have a load with a jacketed 158 that does 1250 in a 4" barrel it really is doing far better than should be expected, and it is hardly a reduced load! And, FWIW, 1525 from a 158 gr bullet in a 6" barrel isn't likely to happen! I hope this helps you to see what is reasonable for the cartridge with loads that do replicate the original ballistics of the cartridge.

 

[Dream to Dream]

Mierda de toro.

GF

...Can you say that in a public forum?

 

[stantheman86]

.38 Special isn't what it used to be either......I bought a box of old Remington Lubaloy .38's from the 60's at a gun show, and they were hotter than the new Magtech crap I have. Some of the new .38's almost feel like gallery loads. Ammo makers are afraid someone will put a hot .38 in some zinc pot metal Saturday night special and blow it up, so they download them.

This is why .38 +P is the "new" .38 Special for anything serious, and "standard" .38 Special is now seen as a "plinker" or range round.

 

[lazy]

So does this mean that I can put .357 loads in .38 cases, for my 686?

Last saturday I shot some .38s that I loaded to what Tight group said was the max. I then shot some 158s full magnums from Independence, and O my they hurt my hand.

 

[XTrooper]

The .357 Magnum is alive and well, both the revolvers and the factory ammunition, if you do your job and make the right choices.

There are still outstanding quality revolvers available and factory "full house" loads just as hot as they've always been, more so if you opt for loads from outfits like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap.

I carry a Performance Center 627 8-shot .357 Magnum and it is, by far, the finest revolver I've ever owned or carried (which covers a lot of ground). My carry ammo is Federal's 130gr Hydra-Shok load. It launches its 130gr bullet at an honest 1400+ fps and is the very definition of "stout."

 

[cp1969]

I remember shooting some of that old, hot Winchester ammo in a Python. After one cylinder, the bore was so leaded that a Lewis Lead Remover brought out strings of lead 2-3" long.

My feeling is that there is no discernible difference on game between a 1250 fps .357 load and a 1500 fps load. All the additional velocity does is flatten out the trajectory for long range shooting, and not by much. Where it shows up is beyond the range that most people can hit anything. A 1500 fps .357 is a (slightly) extended range 1250 fps .357, not a different, vastly more powerful round.

If you need more power than the 1250 fps .357, you need more caliber and bullet weight, not more velocity.

Of course, this is just my opinion but it was formed by over 40 years of shooting handguns.

 

[white cloud]

the .357 & .38 are just more examples of what you see about every where these days from broadcast journalism to the current crop of revolvers.

 

[XTrooper]

I remember shooting some of that old, hot Winchester ammo in a Python. After one cylinder, the bore was so leaded that a Lewis Lead Remover brought out strings of lead 2-3" long.

My feeling is that there is no discernible difference on game between a 1250 fps .357 load and a 1500 fps load. All the additional velocity does is flatten out the trajectory for long range shooting, and not by much. Where it shows up is beyond the range that most people can hit anything. A 1500 fps .357 is a (slightly) extended range 1250 fps .357, not a different, vastly more powerful round.

If you need more power than the 1250 fps .357, you need more caliber and bullet weight, not more velocity.

Of course, this is just my opinion but it was formed by over 40 years of shooting handguns.

You can only feel this way if you believe kinetic energy has absolutely no effect on a living target. Some pretty smart folks believe it does. For my part, I shoot the hottest stuff I can skillfully handle.

P. S.- I know people who've been cooking for 40+ years and you still wouldn't want to eat one of their meals.

 

[cp1969]

You can only feel this way if you believe kinetic energy has absolutely no effect on a living target. Some pretty smart folks believe it does. For my part, I shoot the hottest stuff I can skillfully handle.

P. S.- I know people who've been cooking for 40+ years and you still wouldn't want to eat one of their meals.

Good for you. Eat your own cooking and never learn from anybody else.

FWIW, the 'pretty smart folks' who believe kinetic energy is the last word in handgun power are free to believe whatever they want. That will lead them to the conclusion that a hot .357 is more effective in the field than a .45 Colt. It isn't. If they use both long enough, they'll prove it to themselves.

 

[stantheman86]

It seems if you don't handload and you want a "stout" .357 for defense you have to buy one of the specialty defensive brands, like Gold Dot, TAP, or any of the other stuff that comes in boxes of 25 that you basically shoot 6 to make sure it works and then use the rest for HD or CC.

Or you have to get something like the CorBon Or Buffalo Bore ".357 +P" stuff.

Otherwise, from what I have read the "max pressure" specs of what most ammo makers use for .357 has dropped to lower levels. I am not a ballistics expert, or any of that, but people who have been shooting since before I was even born tell me factory .357 isn't loaded as powerful as it "used to be".

Like was said above, if you need it "hotter" than you need a .41 or .44 Magnum.

 

[SWBigBang]

Since the trend seems to have migrated away from revolvers that resulted in a hit toward the .357 caliber.

But there must still be an interest because the ammo sure is expensive.

I don't own a .357 but may get one if the price is right. Not sure if I really want to take on another caliber. Not enough room to store ammo. Maybe when the kids go off to college their room can be the ammo storage room.

 

[Lost Lake]

It makes one wonder what a 1,500 fps 158 grain cast SWC out of a 6 inch barreled revolver would do on a whitetail. It might be worth exploring.

I hunt with a load very similar to that. Deer are pretty thin skinned, so I want rapid expansion. Deer are probably comparable to a human with a jacket and shirt on.

As for what the 1500 fps 158 grain bullet does, well not much. A lot less than a 150gr 3,000 fps out of a 30.06 does! Kinetic energy is alive and well in my world.

 

[XTrooper]

That will lead them to the conclusion that a hot .357 is more effective in the field than a .45 Colt.

Only if they try to make caliber comparisons and no one is doing that in this thread but you.

Whether I'm shooting a .357 Magnum, a .45 Colt, or any other caliber you want to interject, I'll generally choose the load that generates the most energy. I'd mention the amount of experience I have shooting living targets, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Others are free to choose for themselves.