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dacoontz
Member
I wonder if this is where the rumor of the existence of a 1016 began.
FBI 1076
- Thread starter dacoontz
- Start date
I wonder if this is where the rumor of the existence of a 1016 began.
I remember reading that somewhere. My frame is clearly marked 1076. It is the inside of the slide that says MOD 1006. I believe you said a few pages back that you had one also marked this way. I've also seen confirmation from other 1076 owners that say 10MM on the inside of the slide. Just really curious as to why they were marked this way and would like to get an answer from S&W if possible. I specifically asked this in the request letter as well as sent the picture below but nothing was mentioned in the official letter I received back.
WJFranklin's Son
Member
Gentlemen,
I have finally been in town long enough to get to these and post some samples of the data. I have shown pictures of the 1990 and 1992 Ammunition test results performed by the FBI as well as their Hydrashok testing. The testing was performed by round (10mm, 9mm, .45ACP, .38 Special, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum) and by manufacturer (Federal etc...). I am also in possession of my father's Firearms Instructors Manual. I will be taking them to FedEx Office to try and find out how much to make copies and ship should you like. There are 4 books/manuals/findings in total. Please let me know if interested so I can know whether it is worth the trip or not.
Directly from the FBI
Firearms Instructors Manual Table of Contents
Sample Data
Quote inside Instructors Manual
I have finally been in town long enough to get to these and post some samples of the data. I have shown pictures of the 1990 and 1992 Ammunition test results performed by the FBI as well as their Hydrashok testing. The testing was performed by round (10mm, 9mm, .45ACP, .38 Special, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum) and by manufacturer (Federal etc...). I am also in possession of my father's Firearms Instructors Manual. I will be taking them to FedEx Office to try and find out how much to make copies and ship should you like. There are 4 books/manuals/findings in total. Please let me know if interested so I can know whether it is worth the trip or not.
Directly from the FBI
Firearms Instructors Manual Table of Contents
Sample Data
Quote inside Instructors Manual
WJFranklin's Son
Member
Here are some pictures from the slide and barrel of my (father's issued firearm) PC 1076
OP
dacoontz
Member
Confirmed my newest as an agent owned FBI 1076
Well, as I suspected, my most recently acquired 1076 lettered as an FBI gun that was later sold to an agent. Anyone with any ideas on finding out which agent bought this gun? Anyway, below is the letter and some pics. Happy to put this one in the safe by the FBI academy 1076 I started out with.
Well, as I suspected, my most recently acquired 1076 lettered as an FBI gun that was later sold to an agent. Anyone with any ideas on finding out which agent bought this gun? Anyway, below is the letter and some pics. Happy to put this one in the safe by the FBI academy 1076 I started out with.
Attachments
FirebirdV8
Member
One of the websites I have researched 10mm stuff on had this picture when talking about the S&W 3rd gen 10mm development. They may have only made one, but I think a 1016 would be a real nice carry piece.
Attachments
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dacoontz
Member
JD,
I was hoping someone would post that picture. I wonder if that isn't the one that Dave is talking about above that was sent to the FBI.
I was hoping someone would post that picture. I wonder if that isn't the one that Dave is talking about above that was sent to the FBI.
dmc8163
Member
Wow! What an incredible photo of the "1016." If only they shot the other side with the serial number. I doubt S&W made a practice of making 3.5" barrel pistols. I would wager it is the one and only ans is the FBI test pistol. The FBI should have returned it to S&W. One can only wonder what has happened to it.
Congrats on THB9981!
Congrats on THB9981!
bad_man_ one
Member
1013 or 1016, Decisions, Decisions?
That's a 4516 in that old internet photo.
Look at the magazine, it does not have the protrusions (dimples) that the 10 m.m. mags have in them so they do not insert into .45 ACP caliber gun.
The spacing and round count of the witness holes is for a 7 round 4516/4536 Magazine.
Compare it to the 10 m.m. magazine.
On the other hand;
With my little project that's going on with the conversion barrels for the 10XX's, I'm just debating on whether to go with a 3.50" or 3.75".
It "IS" just the next logical step.
Stay tuned...............
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...ction-has-started-40-s-w-357-sig-barrels.html
Regards,
BM1
The old internet photo.
Hello all,
That's a 4516 in that old internet photo.
Look at the magazine, it does not have the protrusions (dimples) that the 10 m.m. mags have in them so they do not insert into .45 ACP caliber gun.
The spacing and round count of the witness holes is for a 7 round 4516/4536 Magazine.
Compare it to the 10 m.m. magazine.
On the other hand;
With my little project that's going on with the conversion barrels for the 10XX's, I'm just debating on whether to go with a 3.50" or 3.75".
It "IS" just the next logical step.
Stay tuned...............
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...ction-has-started-40-s-w-357-sig-barrels.html
Regards,
BM1
The old internet photo.
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dmc8163
Member
Dacoontz, I've discovered that tracing a particular pistol back to a particular agent is very difficult. If you can figure out who the FFL is that handled the S&W to Agent transaction 1n 1993 it's possible the FFL will still have the pertinent record. Also, as you know, this FBI 1076 was literally on of the last ones shipped to the Gun Vault before the recall. I have another THB that was in the same shipment, 5/5/91. It's not possible determine whether any of the 5/5/91 pistols were actually issued to Agents. Hopefully the Agent that bought this pistol is the one it was issued to in the first place. But remember that Agents could buy one or any number of FBI 1076s.
dmc8163
Member
FBI 1076 Pistol Lockup
There has been much discussion over the years as to the cause of the reports (five or less) of FBI 1076 lockups and other FBI issues with the pistol. The following description comes directly from an internal S&W document authored by a S&W engineer sent to upper management at S&W. The date is unkown.
*************************************************************
"The descriptions of the pistols which locked up in Miami and Tampa were identical. The hammer was in the half-cock position; the trigger was fully forward with no freedom of movement; the hammer could not be fully cocked, and the rearward travel of the slide was limited by the hammer. Both pistols were reloaded just prior to the lockup.
It has been determined it is possible for the drawbar to be lifted and locked in a position that prevents trigger movement. Once in the locked position, neither the trigger nor the drawbar are free to move. Therefore, the slide can only move to the point where the hammer makes contact with the drawbar. Only with the hammer in the 1/2 cock position, and even then the possibility exists only on a small percentage of limits, is the drawbar free to be put into a locked position. The force that lifts the drawbar into the locked position is the top round of the magazine during loading.
This lockup is not possible with other S&W pistols in that the special FBI trigger has a different interface where the trigger, the trigger play spring and drawbar intersect. On standard S&W triggers, the area of the trigger that is causing the lockup has been removed.
A simple test has been devised to determine whether or not a pistol can possibly be locked up. This test is performed with the pistol field stripped and the hammer in the 1/2 cock position. To test the pistol, you simply push the drawbar forward and up. Then pull the trigger. If you cannot move the trigger, it is possible for the pistol to be locked up. Even then, it would require a round to be very far forward in the magazine to actually contact and push up the drawbar.
There appear to be two possible product changes to prevent a pistol from locking up. First, the current trigger can be modified to add 0.010" of material to the front stop surface. This added material changes the relationship between the trigger and drawbar in a way that prevents the two parts from ever getting into a lockup condition. The second solution is to change back to the standard trigger used on all other S&W pistols. Further testing is still required to insure that this solution has no negative tradeoffs.
To verify the effectiveness of both solutions, the FBI trigger with 0.010" added and the standard trigger, are not sensitive to wear, endurance tests were conducted for both configurations. Contact is made between the trigger and drawbar in the FBI configuration. No contact exists between these parts in the standard trigger configuration. Therefore, four pistols were endurance tested with the FBI trigger and only one with the standard trigger. The four pistols with FBI triggers were fired 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. The pistol with the standard trigger was fired 20,000 rounds. No wear on the critical surfaces was seen after the test. None of the five pistols could be put into the lockup position after the endurance test.
II. CHIPPED EXTRACTORS
As we have previously reported, the cause of the chipped extractors was the processing of this part. A small burr was being generated during machining and became brittle when the part was hardened by heat treatment. The correction was in reprocessing the part to eliminate the burr.
Parts have been made to the new process and test fired. Six pistols were test fired with new extractors. The number of rounds fired through each pistol are:
1 pistol 36,000 rounds
2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds
No chipping or any other damage was seen on any of the six extractors. These parts are available for inspection.
III. CRACKED MAGAZINE FOLLOWERS
The test procedure used to determine which material should be used in the magazine follower was described in our previous letter. In addition to these tests, we have loaded and fired 100 magazine assemblies 100 times each with no damage to the follower. An automated machine was developed to slam both loaded and unloaded magazines into a frame. This machine has been used, and did not fracture the new follower after 50,000 cycles.
IV. BROKEN TRIGGER PLAY SPRING
Trigger play springs had been breaking after approximately 1,500 rounds during training at Quantico. Prior to the spring actually breaking, it was frequently observed that one or both of the legs, which contact the trigger, had been severely bent rearward.
The first action taken to improve the durability of this part was to increase the amount of clearance between it and the pistol frame. This was done to assure no contact between these two parts under any condition. When the clearance cut in the frame was increased by 0.020" on each side, the severe bending of the spring was eliminated and the durability increased to approximately 3,000 rounds.
After exploring and discounting stress resulting from thermal cycles, die wear, and improper processing, it was decided to decrease the stress level in the part by making it more flexible. This was accomplished by increasing the length of the two slots in the spring and decreasing the material thickness from 0.008" to 0.007". Alternate materials were also investigated but none proved superior to the 301 stainless now used. The combination of the increased clearance cuts in the frame and new trigger play springs have been 100% successful in five pistols. The number of rounds fired are:
2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds
Ke14J/~
Ey:gd \j "
*************************************************************
There has been much discussion over the years as to the cause of the reports (five or less) of FBI 1076 lockups and other FBI issues with the pistol. The following description comes directly from an internal S&W document authored by a S&W engineer sent to upper management at S&W. The date is unkown.
*************************************************************
"The descriptions of the pistols which locked up in Miami and Tampa were identical. The hammer was in the half-cock position; the trigger was fully forward with no freedom of movement; the hammer could not be fully cocked, and the rearward travel of the slide was limited by the hammer. Both pistols were reloaded just prior to the lockup.
It has been determined it is possible for the drawbar to be lifted and locked in a position that prevents trigger movement. Once in the locked position, neither the trigger nor the drawbar are free to move. Therefore, the slide can only move to the point where the hammer makes contact with the drawbar. Only with the hammer in the 1/2 cock position, and even then the possibility exists only on a small percentage of limits, is the drawbar free to be put into a locked position. The force that lifts the drawbar into the locked position is the top round of the magazine during loading.
This lockup is not possible with other S&W pistols in that the special FBI trigger has a different interface where the trigger, the trigger play spring and drawbar intersect. On standard S&W triggers, the area of the trigger that is causing the lockup has been removed.
A simple test has been devised to determine whether or not a pistol can possibly be locked up. This test is performed with the pistol field stripped and the hammer in the 1/2 cock position. To test the pistol, you simply push the drawbar forward and up. Then pull the trigger. If you cannot move the trigger, it is possible for the pistol to be locked up. Even then, it would require a round to be very far forward in the magazine to actually contact and push up the drawbar.
There appear to be two possible product changes to prevent a pistol from locking up. First, the current trigger can be modified to add 0.010" of material to the front stop surface. This added material changes the relationship between the trigger and drawbar in a way that prevents the two parts from ever getting into a lockup condition. The second solution is to change back to the standard trigger used on all other S&W pistols. Further testing is still required to insure that this solution has no negative tradeoffs.
To verify the effectiveness of both solutions, the FBI trigger with 0.010" added and the standard trigger, are not sensitive to wear, endurance tests were conducted for both configurations. Contact is made between the trigger and drawbar in the FBI configuration. No contact exists between these parts in the standard trigger configuration. Therefore, four pistols were endurance tested with the FBI trigger and only one with the standard trigger. The four pistols with FBI triggers were fired 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. The pistol with the standard trigger was fired 20,000 rounds. No wear on the critical surfaces was seen after the test. None of the five pistols could be put into the lockup position after the endurance test.
II. CHIPPED EXTRACTORS
As we have previously reported, the cause of the chipped extractors was the processing of this part. A small burr was being generated during machining and became brittle when the part was hardened by heat treatment. The correction was in reprocessing the part to eliminate the burr.
Parts have been made to the new process and test fired. Six pistols were test fired with new extractors. The number of rounds fired through each pistol are:
1 pistol 36,000 rounds
2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds
No chipping or any other damage was seen on any of the six extractors. These parts are available for inspection.
III. CRACKED MAGAZINE FOLLOWERS
The test procedure used to determine which material should be used in the magazine follower was described in our previous letter. In addition to these tests, we have loaded and fired 100 magazine assemblies 100 times each with no damage to the follower. An automated machine was developed to slam both loaded and unloaded magazines into a frame. This machine has been used, and did not fracture the new follower after 50,000 cycles.
IV. BROKEN TRIGGER PLAY SPRING
Trigger play springs had been breaking after approximately 1,500 rounds during training at Quantico. Prior to the spring actually breaking, it was frequently observed that one or both of the legs, which contact the trigger, had been severely bent rearward.
The first action taken to improve the durability of this part was to increase the amount of clearance between it and the pistol frame. This was done to assure no contact between these two parts under any condition. When the clearance cut in the frame was increased by 0.020" on each side, the severe bending of the spring was eliminated and the durability increased to approximately 3,000 rounds.
After exploring and discounting stress resulting from thermal cycles, die wear, and improper processing, it was decided to decrease the stress level in the part by making it more flexible. This was accomplished by increasing the length of the two slots in the spring and decreasing the material thickness from 0.008" to 0.007". Alternate materials were also investigated but none proved superior to the 301 stainless now used. The combination of the increased clearance cuts in the frame and new trigger play springs have been 100% successful in five pistols. The number of rounds fired are:
2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds
Ke14J/~
Ey:gd \j "
*************************************************************
dacoontz said:
Maybe so but it's not the only posibility. Back in the middle of S&W's "new gun a week" period when my 4516 was new and seemed special one of the gun magazines typically on grocery store racks contained a picture of a single pistol that appeared to be a 4516 incorrectly captioned "1016". At the time I thought the caption was only an insignificant typo as there was no mention of a 1016 in the text. It's very unlikely that they got a picture of the FBI's 3.5" test 10mm but not unreasonable the think that the typo seeded the rumor.
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OP
dacoontz
Member
DMC,
That sounds like somewhere to start. It might be fun just to try and you never know what might turn up. I am glad to have one that was likely in the last shipment since the TEU I have was likely in one of the first. Now maybe I'll have to find a couple that fall somewhere in the middel.
Thanks for the added info on the post above. Good stuff there.
dmc8163
Member
The interesting thing is that your late production pistol is a vastly improved version over the TEU pistol. Some of the changes are readily apparent and other are not, e.g., extractor, extractor spring, ejector, barrel, trigger return spring, etc.
remat457
Member
Half-cock position? Like frozen in between cocked/decocked while firing?
I found a 1076 at a shop today that is in great shape but has no box and only one magazine. It has a "TFK" prefix in the serial number. I noticed that this prefix was on the list of FBI prefixes. Does this mean that it is definitely a FBI 1076 or just a possibility that it might be a FBI 1076?
Also, the shop is asking $699 (it is on consignment). What is the current selling price these days?
Also, the shop is asking $699 (it is on consignment). What is the current selling price these days?
dmc8163
Member
TFK is a very common prefix for FBI 1076s. That said, it doesn't mean this pistol is an FBI 1076. Does it have a caution statement and will it fire with the magazine removed? Is there a "u" stamped on the bottom of the trigger guard? The complete serial number would allow me to search my limited records.
It will fire with the mag removed and it does have the caution on the slide. I did see a "U" or a "J" stamped on the bottom of the trigger guard.
I have the full serial#. Would it be frowned upon to post it?
dmc8163
Member
I don't see a problem in posting the serial number. However, feel free to send me a personal message. D
