Returned from service and I need some help!!!

[markush]

Please bare with me as I try to write this out, I am so unbelievable angry right now. I purchased a 637 just over a month ago and found what was a gouge running the entire length of the barrel. I started this thread here with pics... http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/188381-how-bad-can-one-persons-luck.html#post135919822
Back to S&W it went and I just received it back today. The return paperwork said..."Tool marks in barrel bore...Replace BBL.". I can tell the barrel has been at least removed because of marks on the face of the frame from turning the barrel.

This next part makes my blood boil...They either polished the hell out of the original barrel to get rid of the tool marks then put it back on or they polished the hell out of the replacement barrel for whatever reason...in either case...THEY DESTROYED THE RIFLING!! I now have a brand new 6 week old never fired by me 637 that is not far off from a smooth-bore!!

I'm including pics of before and after in this post. You can see all my photos both before and after on my Photobucket page here. Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

NOTE the pics of the newly received barrel were difficult to take because of the polish in it. But I have taken enough photos with different focal points that you can clearly see that the lands are severely polished down.

I fear simple sending it back again will resolve nothing! I need some help in bringing this to the attention of someone who will make this right! Please someone help me!

Before with the tool mark

After...The polished barrel creates lots of glare but look at the washed out edges of the lands both internally and at the muzzle.

Here you can clearly see the crispness of both the gouge and the lands before it was sent back.

Here I received a highly polished bore. The polishing wiping out almost all of the rifling.

 

[Tunachaser]

Man I feal for ya, that sucks, especially coming from Smith & Wesson. I would send it back with your pics and let em know you are not an idiot. I would want a new weapon.

 

[tomcatt51]

Polygonal rifling.

 

[Engine49guy]

Have you had a chance to test fire it yet?
I see the difference but the 637 is a snub ccw gun,
If it was a Target model and your accuracy went to Hell its one thing.
If your grouping is the same do you feel the gun is devalued?
If so call them and I bet they fix it.

 

[markush]

I would want a new weapon.

At this point that's all I want. I bought a new gun I want a new gun. Not one with gouges in the barrel, Not one with decimated rifling in the barrel, Not one with marks on the frame from changing the barrel.

Have you had a chance to test fire it yet?
I see the difference but the 637 is a snub ccw gun,
If it was a Target model and your accuracy went to Hell its one thing.
If your grouping is the same do you feel the gun is devalued?
If so call them and I bet they fix it.

Never fired out side of the factory. To me it doesn't matter if it puts all five in a single hole at 25yds. How many tens of thousands of rounds would I have had to put through a new barrel to make it look like this? To me the life of the barrel is gone and again I have not gotten to fire one shot from it. CCW, pocket carry, It doesn't matter what I'm going to do with it once it is right. It is a brand new gun that I paid a brand new price for!

The thing is...I already sent it back and this is what was returned! Is there anyway I can insure I am not dealt with like this again...How do I insure I am actually taken care of!? Is there someone I can email, call, write, send photos to, that would care enough to make this right for me?

 

[scooter123]

You can calm down, you have a new barrel made via the EDM process that S&W is slowly moving towards. And YES, they all feature a surface finish that looks like it's been polished. I can tell you that you will NOT see any loss in accuracy and will most likely see a slight gain in velocity. About the only limitation is that you may see leading issues with some brands of LRN ammunition, specifically Blaser LRN. I have this same type of rifling in the barrels of my 620 and 610-3 and the one time I used Blaser LRN in the 620 it created so much leading that it took nearly 6 hours to get the barrel clean.

As for the accuracy of this new style rifling, take a look at the following link and look specifically at the 50 yard target. I was really working on getting the release clean and the first 4 shots impacted on that cloverleaf on the left, then the scope kicked loose due to a rear clamp that shot loose and I shot those 2 on the right plus one called flyer. That 4 shot cloverleaf spans 0.88 inch center to center, so I can assure that the new style rifling can produce accuracy every bit as good as the older cut rifling.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-put-scope-my-620-just-see-what-could-do.html

Bottomline, you've recieved a brand new barrel produced by the most recent technology for rifling a gun barrel. I also suspect that this type of rifling will produce a velocity gain over the older cut rifling simply because that surface is so smooth. However, I don't have a chronograph so I cannot state that as a fact. What I can state as a fact is the this new style rifling produces excellent accuracy because I've shot these barrels.

 

[markush]

Scooter how new is this EDM thing? After reading your post I did a quick google search on S&W EDM. Most of the references I found saying that "Smith changed over to EDM" were dated from 08 some in 07 and I saw one of yours from 09. The date on my fired case is 3/3/11 my serial # is CRA05xx. So when you say I have a "new barrel", do you say my couple of month old revolver started out with an "old" barrel and last week they put a "new" barrel on it?

I have no doubt the velocities would be higher. At the very least the surface is slicker. With only being able to compare the two barrels that have been on my 637 through a camera lens and photoshop. I would say higher velocities were also achieved because the bore diameter between the lands is greater. To my eye, the lands on my original barrel are at least 1/3 and maybe even twice at tall as in the new barrel.

Of course I am not able to actually measure this since I do not have the proper tools and the old original barrel is gone anyway.

 

[chief38]

markush,

Were I you, I would find out who the person in charge is at the repair dept. and chat with them first thing in the morning. Find out what the scoop is with your revolver and ask them who's attention you should send it to for a proper barrel to be installed.

I am not familiar with the so called "new type" of barrels, but you logic makes perfect sense to me in the fact that your revolver was fairly new to begin with so why should the replacement barrel be so different?. If you are not happy with their response, you can always sell it and buy an older version. Personally, I do not care for any S&W revolver manufactured after 1995 or so, and have been buying old stock-NIB or used "as new" revolvers on G/B ever since. I have purchased revolvers in 96 - 100% condition and so far have been quite happy with them. Just an option for you to consider...........

Chief38

 

[chief38]

scooter123,

I am a bit puzzled as to why you would get more leading build up with a super smooth barrel??? One would think that the sharper and rougher barrel would produce greater leading than a smooth one would. I believe you, I just don't understand the reason.

Chief38

 

[scooter123]

I really don't understand why they seem more sensitive to leading, however it's enough of an issue with Glock's polygonal barrels that Glock advises that only jacketed bullets be used. Personally, I don't ever intend to use anything but jacketed bullets in these barrels in the future, once with lead was enough.

As for why some guns of recent vintage have cut rifling and others EDM, I suspect that's a result of S&W never letting any old stock go to waste. Keep in mind that S&W has parts in their warehouses to repair guns made in the 1980's, so they have a lot of old inventory to use for new production runs. Most likely barrels made in 2011 are via the Edm process but many guns are probably being assembled today with barrels made well before the EDM process was invented. Most likely the production guns are assembled from stock in the warehouse using a First IN, First OUT scheme, which means they choose the oldest stock in the warehouse first. However, the Perfomance Center guns and most likely those in for warranty repair are using parts made using the latest technology, which means having an old style barrel replaced with a brand new barrel isn't at all surprizing. Basically, in a warranty repair S&W "stacks the deck" a bit to insure the customer will be satisfied and the gun won't come back again.

As for when the EDM process for rifling was first introduced, that I don't know. I'm a bit late to the game concerning recent S&W's and didn't purchase one until I got my 620 in 2008. Due to the odd look of the rifling I inquired about what was going on and got the answer that I've passed along here.

BTW, one of the posters related that when S&W first introduced this process to ATF representatives they were told that they would have to "degrade" the process slightly because the barrels produced were "too perfect". Basically there was no difference in the ballistic "fingerprint" left on the bullets from barrel to barrel. Sometimes when I have the barrels in my 620 and 610 exceptionally clean I think I can see a bit of evidence of this just past the forcing cone, with the light positioned just right I can see a small area where the light is refracted just a bit oddly. It's not really pitting, just an odd bit of a reflection from a small area in the barrel, perhaps the result of the application of a small bit of acid to etch the steel. Point is, if you look really close you may see a tiny flaw that was intentionally put there to meet the requirements of the ATF. Since this doesn't seem to have any effect on either accuracy or leading it doesn't bother me at all. However, I'll bet if the CIA needs a handgun with truly untraceble rifling, they know just who to call.

 

[TSQUARED]

Please bare with me as I try to write this out, I am so unbelievable angry right now. I purchased a 637 just over a month ago and found what was a gouge running the entire length of the barrel. I started this thread here with pics... http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/188381-how-bad-can-one-persons-luck.html#post135919822
Back to S&W it went and I just received it back today. The return paperwork said..."Tool marks in barrel bore...Replace BBL.". I can tell the barrel has been at least removed because of marks on the face of the frame from turning the barrel.

This next part makes my blood boil...They either polished the hell out of the original barrel to get rid of the tool marks then put it back on or they polished the hell out of the replacement barrel for whatever reason...in either case...THEY DESTROYED THE RIFLING!! I now have a brand new 6 week old never fired by me 637 that is not far off from a smooth-bore!!

I'm including pics of before and after in this post. You can see all my photos both before and after on my Photobucket page here. Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

NOTE the pics of the newly received barrel were difficult to take because of the polish in it. But I have taken enough photos with different focal points that you can clearly see that the lands are severely polished down.

I fear simple sending it back again will resolve nothing! I need some help in bringing this to the attention of someone who will make this right! Please someone help me!

Before with the tool mark

After...The polished barrel creates lots of glare but look at the washed out edges of the lands both internally and at the muzzle.

Here you can clearly see the crispness of both the gouge and the lands before it was sent back.

Here I received a highly polished bore. The polishing wiping out almost all of the rifling.

Personally,
I do not see anything wrong with the replacemnt barrel that S&W installed. Have you shot the gun after it was returned to you?

 

[Bugs Bunny]

I have not been pleased with the service I have rec from S&W repair shop with the last few revolvers I sent back.

A new from S&W barrel installed, returned with a "DING" like it had been dropped? (see picture) various new marks in the finish

I have never been in contact with the repair shop, just the regular phone guys who sent call tags for the barrel mess - another 2 months?

 

[tomcatt51]

Personally,
I do not see anything wrong with the replacemnt barrel that S&W installed.

+1
It's a newer barrel with S&W's version of polygonal rifling. This is much like the whining over MIM vs forged parts.

 

[tomcatt51]

Sometimes when I have the barrels in my 620 and 610 exceptionally clean I think I can see a bit of evidence of this just past the forcing cone, with the light positioned just right I can see a small area where the light is refracted just a bit oddly.

You may be seeing some "barrel squish/deformation" where the barrel is threaded/torqued into the frame. Very common in Rugers (they seem to take "crush fit" seriously), less common in S&Ws. Sometimes you can see a "ring" at the frame/barrel shoulder and a "funny" reflection in the threaded area.

 

[Aircrewman]

markush,
While I understand your displeasure with the work done, it seems to me that the situation could have been resolved, and you would have been much better served, if the 'smith at the factory had enclosed a note indicating what was done and why. It would have not taken too much time, however they are busy there. In any case, I think the new barrel is quite satisfactory and given the information you have gotten through the forum, you may have come out a little ahead. The polygonal rifled barrels are proven for all manner of firearms now and have been for some time.

I think that you should, at the very least, go out and shoot that thing. Shoot it close up, shoot it far out, shoot it at 15, 20, 25, 35, 40 yards and see if there is any issues in accuracy. Then you would have sufficient force of argument to ask Smith and Wesson to change the barrel if you were not satisfied. Scooter123 made a pretty persuasive argument for the new barrels, however, being a short barrel, you may find a different accuracy level. I will close with just a note of my experience with polygonal rifled short barrels. I had a Glock 26 in 9mm. I could actually outshoot the standard and long barrels with it. Now that could have been attributed to several factors: 1) short length so less vibration, 2) stiffer barrel just because it is short, 3) I was trying really hard to hit what I was aiming at, 4) just one of those barrels that "had it." My point is that the newer rifling, while certainly less expensive to produce, does have have some advantages. Generally this is good accuracy, much easier cleaning and pretty good life with a higher level of accuracy achieved over a longer life of the firearm. Hope the info given here eases the angst you have experienced. I have been there myself a few times...

 

[Frank46]

Markush, not to get off topic, but when the CZ82 pistols hit the market in 9x18 makarov first impression among some of the buyers was that the bbl had been shot out as they could not see the conventional rifling that we have been accustomed to. Rather its the polygonal rifling developed to give a more longer accurate life out of the bbl Much the same as a glock. I can definitely see rifling in your bbl and as you said looks not quite the same as the bbl previously on your revolver. I'm not taking sides but in all fairness to you and S&W please give them a call
and see what they have to say. And then tell them your findings. Hopefully both sides can come to a satisfactory conclusion. I had a winchester heavy bbld rifle in 308. Shot like a house afire that had a hammer forged bbl. You could see pits in the grooves and rifling. What I later found out was that they were having problems with the steel and when the bbls were hammer forged any inclusions were hammered into the steel. But when shot the inclusions were removed and the end result was the pitting. Sent the rifle back and a new bbl installed. End result after being fired about 50 times no pitting was observed. Frank

 

[Arisin Wind]

It looks like the gouge was in a groove. If they polished it out shouldn't the lands be totally gone?

 

[markush]

No, it was on a land. I've been in touch with a regular CS rep by phone and a CS supervisor by email. The regular guy said the original barrel would have been the "new style" barrel. I posed the same question to the supervisor and am waiting on a reply to it. Both offered to send a return label with the super saying she would insure it went to her desk for inspection. I'll await her next reply and go from there.

I am not saying that you guy who are saying it's the "new" rifling process are wrong. It's just that it looks exactly like rifling I've grew up with for 30+ years and also the rifling that was in the original barrel...EXCEPT that it is polished/worn away! There is still 5 lands with a right hand twist that look to be the same width, it's just that they are much, much shallower. I just can't believe that lands that are 1/3 to 1/2 shallower are supposed to be better, ESPECIALLY in regards to barrel life and long term accuracy.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I send it in and the supervisor can honestly tell me "that's the way it is". Then that's it.

ETA: I received her reply, and based on what she said I am sending it in for her to look at it.

 

[Sevenshooter]

ETA: I received her reply, and based on what she said I am sending it in for her to look at it.

Are you gonna shoot it before you send it back? I would. See how it shoots.

That way, if they send it back saying it is good like that at least you will know it is a shooter... or if it doesn't shoot worth a hoot, you can include the details in the box when you send it back.

I "feel ya" getting it back in a shape you were not expecting. If it is a new process barrel with that different look you think it would have been a good idea to include some explaination or literature 'splainin why it looks different.

I hope it works out well in the end for you. I know it is aggravating. But, before you know it it'll be back in your hand one way or the other, repaired or replaced.

I'd shoot it first though...

Ss

 

[scooter123]

No, it was on a land. I've been in touch with a regular CS rep by phone and a CS supervisor by email. The regular guy said the original barrel would have been the "new style" barrel. I posed the same question to the supervisor and am waiting on a reply to it. Both offered to send a return label with the super saying she would insure it went to her desk for inspection. I'll await her next reply and go from there.

I am not saying that you guy who are saying it's the "new" rifling process are wrong. It's just that it looks exactly like rifling I've grew up with for 30+ years and also the rifling that was in the original barrel...EXCEPT that it is polished/worn away! There is still 5 lands with a right hand twist that look to be the same width, it's just that they are much, much shallower. I just can't believe that lands that are 1/3 to 1/2 shallower are supposed to be better, ESPECIALLY in regards to barrel life and long term accuracy.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I send it in and the supervisor can honestly tell me "that's the way it is". Then that's it.

ETA: I received her reply, and based on what she said I am sending it in for her to look at it.

Markush, I can assure you that new barrel looks EXACTLY like the barrel in my 620 and my 610. Yeah, when you're used to cut rifling it looks distinctly odd. However it's undeniable that they can shoot as accurately as any barrel made. Note, the target below was produced at 50 yards using a 1.75X handgun scope from a sandbag rest and I found that the rear clamp had shot loose after I got home. It's pretty obvious that the scope shifted after my 4th or 5th shot. BTW, shot 5 was that flyer way right when I jerked the trigger, 6 and 7 lie in the 2 shot cluster on the right.

IMO you're wasting your time sending it back. Now, with a sight radius as short as you have, you'll either have to have real "eagle eyes" or need some type of optical help to really see what your gun can do, however I strongly believe that you'll be a bit shocked at accuracy potential of these new barrels. Granted, your 637 doesn't feature a tensioned barrel like my 620, but there is wide evidence that short one piece barrels are MORE accurate than longer one piece barrels because they are so much stiffer. BTW, if I ever get a snubby I fully intend to try it out with a scope just to satisfy my curiosity.