ultrasonic cleaner vs tumbler cleaning?

[Daddyschatz]

I am just getting back into reloading after a long time. I have heard of people using an ultrasonic cleaner to clean there brass. since I have an ultrasonic cleaner already....can I use it, how effective is it, and what do i use for a solution? or should I just get a tumbler? right now I will be loading 40S&W and 38 spec.
Thanks in advance!
Scott

 

[Rule3]

I do not use one but have washed (soaked) dirty range brass in a solution of 2 cups white vinegar, 2 tbls salt and enough water to make 1 gal. Soak for 20 minutes and then rinse real well several times. The brass is clean but not super bright and shiny. Fine to reload though. You could use it in the cleaner but still have to rinse it.

I use a tumbler and buy bulk corn cob and walnut media with some car wax added (Nu Finish)

Here is a list of commercial solutions.

Reloading - Shop Reloading Tools & Supplies at MidwayUSA

 

[socal s&w]

I also have a cleaner and use the water, vinegar, dish soap solution. It works just okay, nothing spectacular, but they are clean around the primer pocket and inside.

I usually then run them through the vibratory and polish them up with the media and Nu-Finish, then they are SHINY!!!

I have heard recently though that stainless steel 'pins' used in a tumbler actually does both, cleans pockets and inside and polishes to a bright shine. Some of the pictures that I've seen attest to that too. You still need to use a soapy water solution, so there will be drying involved after tumbling.

The best part is that there is not much in the way of dust if these methods are used.

Stainless Steel media procedure with pictures - Calguns.net

 

[thndrchiken]

I first deprime the cases and run them through the ultra sonic cleaner, then lube, size, trim and chamfer then they go into the tumbler just to polish. My Pistol cases I use carbide dies so size and deprime, trim and chamfer, bell the mouths and then into the ultra sonic cleaner, then finish up in the tumbler again just for polishing. I use simple green, and then rinse with boiling water and spread them out on a rag, the heat from the water aids the drying process.

 

[JohnnieB]

It appears that I'm not the only one that washes brass before tumbling it.

I'm a retired Clinical Engineer and I've maintained several industrial sized Ultrasonic Cleaners used to clean surgical instruments over the years as well as smaller ones. They work by small bubbles (microscopic) forming and bursting on the liquid/solid interface. Tap water doesn't work too well because it contains dissolved minerals and the inherent surface tension is high, so it doesn't flow freely into the smaller nooks and crannies. Distilled water with a couple drops of detergent per quart works pretty well for most applications, but adding vinegar and salt helps remove tarnish from brass. There are specially formulated solutions for cleaning specific materials, so check the application notes when buying premixed solutions.

I have a circa 1975 L&R unit with a half gallon tank that's cleaned a bunch of things including gun parts and badly tarnished range brass. I used to run all of my fired brass through it, but these days I just toss them in a gallon jug and shake them in a solution of distilled water, vinegar, salt and D-Lead detergent, let sit for a while, shake them again and then rinse/dry. Of course, my goal isn't to get them squeaky clean. All I want to do is remove the GSR and keep the airborne lead residue to a minimum while tumbling.

I use a vibratory type tumbler with walnut media and a little NuFinish so they shine (SWMBO likes pretty ammo) and slide into the resizing/decapping die easier on my turret press.

Some reloaders don't clean their brass at all, most tumble it only, while others wash it only and a few of us do both.
Dirty, clean or shiny, it all shoots just fine, but some reloaded ammo looks better than others.

 

[m657]

Daddyschatz:

there is more than one right way to achieve your goal of 'clean brass'.

How you go about establishing your own method depends on a lot of variables important only to you.

My own reloading journey started 30 years ago with the then-new Dillon 450 progressive press. I had never used a single stage press, and learned on first the 450, then the 550, and now the magnificent 650 progressive. Each can be used as a single stage if you wish.

I wrestled with what seemed a crucial decision between choices then of the traditional tumbler style vs the new vibrating style. I couldn't afford what I though I wanted so settled for a cheapie orange Lyman Turbo 1200 figuring to save up for what I "really" wanted later.

That 1200 still performs wonderfully to this very day after 30 years, so I'm pleased. It serves well using medium coarse walnut shell with a capful or 2 of Dillon blue stuff now & then. I got a lifetime supply of the walnut shell at Harbor Freight for $9 a box. After 8 years, I still have most of it waiting its turn.

I experimented for years with a variety of corn cob/magic elixers/other media, but settled for efficiently and economy on the walnut shell. Yes, I tried the red-rouge impregnated stuff too. Unnecessary and rather messier than expected. Undoubtedly there are other satisfactory media. I'd try the ceramic stuff but will wait pending depletion of my current crushed walnut shells.

I have never found the need to trim straight wall pistol cases to length, nor does the Dillon set up require case prep other than basic cleaning, usually taking 20-60 minutes, depending on how shiny I want the brass.

I have experimented with using an ultrasonic cleaner for brass; results are still investigational. I did use it enough on small gun parts to learn the mysterious powder it came with, added to water, was ineffective. I used a number of other suggested solutions, including as advised by my gunsmith, WD 40 deep enough to cover the parts.
It proved effective for cleaning but raised the concern of flash point and potential explosive or burning fluid scenario.

I then bought the condensed cleaner-stuff from one of the major suppliers, that is added at 25:1 or thereabout IIRC. It worked better than anything else I've used in the cheapie u/s unit I have.

The biggest surprise, was throwing in an old corroded double handful of 45 LC brass, mostly nickle, which I had left from shooting the Holy Black several years before. I had rinsed them off in the soapy-jug- on the way home, rinsed with clear water, then put away at the bottom of my 'lose it in plain sight' pile.

They had crusty bits of fulminating chemical debris that had grown over time; I considered them total scrap before trying the ultrasound.

They came out really clean.

So whatever you find in your own methodology will serve you well if you just keep experimenting.

Some will swear only one way is right; I don't care how you do it or what others do to serve their own needs. My method works perfectly for me, and that's all that I'm after.

Cheers on your new hobby.

 

[oldRoger]

IMO loading a ultrasonic cleaner with brass is a PITA. Properly done they must stand up with primer pocket down. (L&R instructions).

My system is to wash them first in hot water and laundry soap, gets the bullet lube and dirt off.
I wait until the wife is away for a while and use the washer. For most handgun brass this is enough.

If you want more the Ultrasonic then will improve the cleanliness and the solution stays cleaner after the washer. They will not be shiny.

I personally think a hot wash and an hour in crushed walnut shells does all I want on handgun brass.

I bought some of the SS media, I use it on rifle brass, it does an absolutely super job.
You tumble in a rotary rock polisher; the pins are tiny and clean everywhere.
However, separating the pins, soapy water, and the brass is not a walk in the park, IMO its overkill for straight wall brass.

 

[socal s&w]

For what it's worth, I did try the ceramic media, did not work any better than the US and just as wet, soapy. I would not recommend it any more than Lyman would....when I spoke to a tech there, he told me that they do not recommend it, (yet they sell the vibratory bowl for doing just that). Go figure.

Anyway, I was not pleased with the results so I am informing you that I think that it's a waste of time to pursue ceramic in a vibratory. Plus, it's expensive!

 

[Plstu]

I use a used fabric softener sheet cut into four pieces, lizard litter, a little Nu-Finish and a couple hours in the vibrator. Great, cheap results.

 

[oldRoger]

I shoot a lot of lead bullets that is the reason for my soap and water wash as a first step.
Between the residual lube, the greasy soot, and powder residue, even brass which has not hit the ground has a lot of water soluble surface crud
It will come off in the vibratory cleaner, but soon leaves the media greasy. My media used on washed brass lasts much longer. I too keep old dryer sheets and pcs. of shop towel circulating in the vib. c.

 

[nrb]

Vinegar is destructive to brass cases

I do NOT recommend using vinegar to clean cartridge cases. It seems some folks want "shiney" brass cases to reload and that is primarily from vinegar treatment. Vinegar is a dilute ACID which attacks the brass metal of the cases. If you are treating your cases with vinegar until they shine, then you are weakening your brass cases.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I've used the Vinegar process and that works well. However, I've had good luck with Citric Acid. 2 tablespoons in hot water, stir, add brass, stir a little, and in less than 10 minutes you have clean brass. And the Citric Acid won't harm the brass no matter how long you leave it in the solution. Citric Acid can be found in any store selling canning or wine making supplies and is not expensive (and be sure to use glass or plastic containers and utensils, not metal).

 

[nrb]

Citric acid dissolves brass

I wish to warn all reloaders that any acid, be it acetic, citric, etc. by their chemical nature attack metals such as the brass in cartridge cases. The acid converts the metal to a salt. The conversion of a dull case to a bright shiny case is simply the dissolving of the external metal to expose fresh metal underneath. If citric acid will not harm brass, then why not use it in metal containers????????
Because the citric acid attacks metals including the brass cases.

 

[JohnnieB]

I do NOT recommend using vinegar to clean cartridge cases. It seems some folks want "shiney" brass cases to reload and that is primarily from vinegar treatment. Vinegar is a dilute ACID which attacks the brass metal of the cases. If you are treating your cases with vinegar until they shine, then you are weakening your brass cases.

I wish to warn all reloaders that any acid, be it acetic, citric, etc. by their chemical nature attack metals such as the brass in cartridge cases. The acid converts the metal to a salt. The conversion of a dull case to a bright shiny case is simply the dissolving of the external metal to expose fresh metal underneath. If citric acid will not harm brass, then why not use it in metal containers????????
Because the citric acid attacks metals including the brass cases.

Thank you for your recommendations and warnings. Do you have any empirical data demonstrating the detrimental effect of washing brass in vinegar and/or other weak acids?

For the heck of it, I just might toss a few .22rf cases (or some caliber I don't reload) into some white vinegar straight out of the bottle for a few days and then compare them with some unsoaked cases from the same lot# to see if they get brittle or whatever, but in the interim, I’m going to continue using the National Rifle Association’s brass washing formula.

NRA Brass Washing Recipe from a 1957 article.

1 Pint water (I use distilled water)
1 cup white vinegar (4% or 5% acetic acid)
1 tablespoon salt
1 teaspoon dish detergent (I use D-Lead made by Esca-Tech)

The NRA gurus originally formulated it for .45acp, but I’ve also been using it with .38spl and .357mag for years without any noticeable reduction in brass life. Of course, I dilute the white vinegar 2:1 with distilled water (which also attacks metals), and don’t use it hot or let brass soak in the solution for prolonged periods of time.

FWIW: I wash my brass to get it clean and then tumble it to make it shine.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

As to comments that Citric Acid "attacks metals", I have never heard of this before (regarding brass). Most information I have states there is no damage, that the Citric Acid "passivates" the brass and helps fight tarnish (making it more resistant to corrosion). Perhaps there is some confusion with ammonia, which is harmful to brass. If anyone has any reference to Citric Acid being a problem please let me know. I'm only one of many using this cleaning process. And it doesn't leave my brass shining new, just clean.

 

[Rule3]

I wish to warn all reloaders that any acid, be it acetic, citric, etc. by their chemical nature attack metals such as the brass in cartridge cases. The acid converts the metal to a salt. The conversion of a dull case to a bright shiny case is simply the dissolving of the external metal to expose fresh metal underneath. If citric acid will not harm brass, then why not use it in metal containers????????
Because the citric acid attacks metals including the brass cases.

Would you consider phosphoric acid more or less harmful to brass.?

http://sport.birchwoodcasey.com/files/MSDS/33845_CaseCleaner_2010.pdf

 

[Daddyschatz]

wow, so many different points of view! this is by far one of the best boards ive ever been on.

 

[JohnnieB]

As to comments that Citric Acid "attacks metals", I have never heard of this before (regarding brass). Most information I have states there is no damage, that the Citric Acid "passivates" the brass and helps fight tarnish (making it more resistant to corrosion). Perhaps there is some confusion with ammonia, which is harmful to brass. If anyone has any reference to Citric Acid being a problem please let me know. I'm only one of many using this cleaning process. And it doesn't leave my brass shining new, just clean.

All acids react with something, but what specific materials they react with and the intensity of that reaction varies.
Who does what to whom can be found in chemistry books and databases.
For metals specifically, use metallurgy books and databases.

Brass is an alloy of Copper and Zinc and the tarnish is oxides of the two base metals.
Citric acid "attacks" Brass by removing the Oxygen from the tarnish, leaving the base metals behind. (This is good - Not bad.)

Many moons have past since I looked this stuff up, so I'm not sure if Citric acid actually passivates Brass, but tumbling would remove the passivated layer even if it does, so if you tumble your Brass after washing, add some Amonia-Free polish to your tumbling media to protect the exposed Brass.

John

 

[Neumann]

Acetic acid (vinegar) and citric acid are "weak" acids, and have a relatively high pH. Neither will dissolve base metals (producing hydrogen), but they will dissolve oxides which form tarnish. Of the two, citric acid is a much better solvent because it chelates (renders soluble) metal salts. It is the primary ingredient, along with detergents, in Hornady's ultrasonic case cleaning solution.

My personal method is to do both. After sizing and depriming cases with a carbide die, I wash them in an ultrasonic cleaner to move carbon and most tarnish, including tarnish caused by heat, inside and out. Most of the primer pockets come out clean and bright too. I dry them pretty well (so medium doesn't stick), then tumble them to remove scratches and any remaining tarnish. If there's any moisture left, the tumbling medium (corn cob + cerium oxide) takes care of it.

The cleaning action of an ultrasonic tank is through cavitation. It doesn't matter if the cases are standing or laying on their sides, or even stacked up, as long as they are all under "water" and the tank is not overloaded. The Hornady tank holds about a quart of liquid and 1 to 1-1/2 pounds of cases.

 

[thedane]

Can someone enlighten us on how much Nu Finish to add to the untreated Walnut media mix. I use a Lyman Turbo 1200 about 1/2 full.