Is it Self Defense to shoot an Intruder and/or burglar in the back?

here in FLA we have the castle doctrine. you do not have to flee and you can shoot if you feel your life, the lives of fam./loved ones is in imminent danger. laws vary greatly from state to state. know local and state laws before you arm yourself for self defense. generally speaking it is frowned upon to shoot a person in the back. it will complicate a simple self defense situation so much so, you might find yourself up on manslaughter charges. any shoot don't shoot situation is complex.
 
Here in Wisconsin, we start driving tractors when we are about 8 years old. I was driving cars and trucks on the road when I was 10. How are they going to deal with that?

Nowadays, I wonder if "they" wouldn't arrest your Mom and Dad for child abuse - and put you in a foster home! :D That seems to be the sort of mentality that is being promoted.
 
In CA it's usually: if you defend yourself they put you in jail.

I had a LEO tell me - that if you have a perp that has just committed a Horrendous Crime, you CAN shoot them in the back. Guess it would be the definition of that mis-deed.
 
I'd be willing

Are you the guy they just banned a similar type of questions on Colt Forum who just kept on listing this same type of question over and over again?

to wager that he is.

Although there are a few times that come to mind that I could (notice I said I could) but someone running out my door with my 50" TV and my 115# German Shepard attatched to his gluteus maximus isn't one of them...unless of course he is pointing a gun at me or someone else and trying to shoot them.

Laws vary greatly from state to state regarding the use of deadly force. I've been trained in the use of deadly force and while that doesn't make me any better then anyone else, actually it burdens me. I know when morally I should use deadly force; regardless of what any local laws say; I'm the one who has to live with what I decide to do...
 
What we were taught in our handgun carry class was that if the intruder was in the act of fleeing we could face a murder charge for shooting said person in the back.

?????????? I always thought that the best place to shoot someone was in the back
 
I havent read all the answers here. Long ago I had to go to class on this in california for my security job and again for my cc permit. I belive there rally is two sets of rules, one for LEOs, and the more popular for us civilians. We were literaly taught a BG could empty his gun at us, run out of ammo and say oh-oh, turn and run and we couldnt shoot back because we are now no longer in danger! Hey! Out thar, kemo sabe!
 
Is it self defense to shoot an intruder and/or burglar in the front?

In Ohio, the answer is: "It depends". You cannot use deadly force to stop someone from stealing your stuff only to protect your life and the lives of those around you.
So if he is in your den and has your computer in his hands, the answer is "no". If he has a gun in his hands, and he is advancing, the answer is "yes". If he has a gun in his hands and he is retreating, the answer is "no".

Oh and it is advisable that you announce your intentions ("You are not permitted to be here. I have a gun and will defend myself if necessary") so he may have the opportunity to change his mind and run away.
 
Here is something I have learned after over 25 years in the Law Enforcement Business.

Rule 1. All rules are subject to change without notice

Rule 2. When you follow all the rules refer to rule #1

Rule 3. Self Defense is grounds for "reasonable use of force.'

Rule 4. Deadly force is reasonable if used as Self Defense if ALL OTHER MEANS OF SELF DEFENSE HAVE FAILED, ARE NOT AVAILABLE OR THE CIRCUMSTANCES WON'T ALLOW IT.

Rule: 5. The justified use of Deadly force will ultimately be determined by Person/s outside Your immediate control. Prosecutors, judges, lawyers, media types, concerned citizens, representatives of "special interest groups and a variety of other individuals too numerous to mention or know will have input into your particular case.

Rule 6. When the use of force including justified force is reasonable, justified and legal refer to RULE # 1
 
All of this is very difficult to talk over---but---just because you can read some statutes that ARE in ENGLISH, that does not mean thet you will benefit from it---too many things can happen. And different cities in same state with different leadeers including police ---well, they might do anything to you. You could end up spending ALOT of money. This business about " Texas...is lenient..." is in that person's imagination and not based on facts---just a belief and people believe what they want to believe. You could get thrown under the bus at some cities in Texas. I do appredciate the SF ex-cop's statements however, the dead do not testify. I wish more guys like him were on the job---he cares about the good guy's.
 
Hmmm...non of the so called "experts" "internet lawyers" or "retired cops" ever brought up Tennessee V. Gardner....or the several cases from the Force Science Institute....so let me say this....unless you are military and dealing with national security or dangerous weapons: lethal force is not authorized for property....only life or to stop grevious bodily harm...that being said you had better be able to articulate why you used deadly force...if you can't then become a sheep and stop carrying....just me

Very very very very wrong.

It depends greatly on where you are.

My advice is if you have to worry about shooting the P.O.S. who is in your house. Move. There are plenty of states where you don't have to be concerned over being sued or arrested for shooting a piece of debris who is in YOUR house.

We can talk all day about outside the home shootings. But let me be clear. The game changes when it comes to inside my house and when my children are involved. My personal circle of security is pretty tight. When my kids and wife are with me. It grows exponentially.
 
Very very very very wrong.

Well sir you are of course entitled to your opinion, and if the great state of GA allows you to use deadly force to stop a larceny then by all means do so. I am surprised though that there aren't more news stories about folks being shot for shoplifting....Burglary/house breaking is a seperate issue as it is an invasion of the dwelling that creates an entirely different set of legal standards...my reference to Tenn v. Gardner illustrated that shooting someone in the back for a larceny who was fleeing was not within the acceptable standards of U.S. law, but again like you said it depends on where you are at. Another forum member and I traded stories about different situations...and it was interesting to see how DAs/Juries will differ, but again if your local DA will support it and you have no fear of a civil law suit then by all means do what you feel is right. That is the differences that make this country great.
 
Very very very very wrong.

It depends greatly on where you are.

My advice is if you have to worry about shooting the P.O.S. who is in your house. Move. There are plenty of states where you don't have to be concerned over being sued or arrested for shooting a piece of debris who is in YOUR house.

We can talk all day about outside the home shootings. But let me be clear. The game changes when it comes to inside my house and when my children are involved. My personal circle of security is pretty tight. When my kids and wife are with me. It grows exponentially.

Before you leave your wife and kids without a father/husband while you are incarcerated for using deadly force without justification, please, please read Georgia State Law. In particular O.C.G.A. 16.3.23.

You need to worry.
 
Here in Missouri the threat is over when the BG is retreating!

Actually, here in Missouri, justification to use deadly force is afforded as long as the actor:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or

(3) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter private property that is owned or leased by an individual claiming a justification of using protective force under this section.

The direction in which the person presenting the threat is traveling is entirely irrelevant if one (or more) of the above circumstances exists.
 
Actually, here in Missouri, justification to use deadly force is afforded as long as the actor:



The direction in which the person presenting the threat is traveling is entirely irrelevant if one (or more) of the above circumstances exists.

If you catch the BG and he attempts retreat, it could be argued that (1) does not apply because the BG was not attacking. Similarly, (2) and (3) would not apply because the BG is trying to leave rather than remain.
If a Bad Guy is trying to run away from you there is no reason to shoot him. Period.
 
If you catch the BG and he attempts retreat, it could be argued that (1) does not apply because the BG was not attacking. Similarly, (2) and (3) would not apply because the BG is trying to leave rather than remain.
If a Bad Guy is trying to run away from you there is no reason to shoot him. Period.

Re-read my post. I plainly stated that if one or more of those 3 circumstances exist, it is entirely irrelevant which direction the aggressor is traveling (in Missouri). Period.

You are trying to approach it from the opposite angle, making the assumption that none of those circumstances exist at a given moment, therefore justification doesn't exist if the person is retreating. While that would be correct, in reality, if none of those circumstances exist, then justification is NOT present REGARDLESS of which direction the aggressor is traveling (unless justification was present under a different section of our defense of justification laws).

What it amounts to is that the legal "test" for justification of deadly force in Missouri is NOT the direction the aggressor is traveling (towards or away), it is the aggressor's ACTIONS. There could be any number of circumstances where an aggressor was physically moving away from you where justification under our statutes could exist.

While I didn't bring it up in my earlier post, if you really want to get technical about it, here in Missouri, the use of deadly force by a private citizen is automatically justified to affect an arrest of a person who, at that time and in your presence, has committed (or attempted to commit) a Class A felony OR is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon after having committed (or attempting to commit) such a crime. So clearly, there are circumstances under which a person in Missouri may lawfully use deadly force against a "retreating" person. It's not as cut and dried as you might think.
 
Huh? Rather than providing hypothetical scenarios, could you please provide specific cases/precedence or MI law(s) where "fleeing felons are essentially fair game". :confused:

It was some years back that another guy went into it in detail, but from Criminal Law I 1999 with Professor Koenig at Cooley it was specifically included in the lectures that the Michigan Supreme Court had affirmed the right to shoot feeling felons in the 1980s. Tenn vs. Garner (which we covered in Con Law I) had to do with law enforcement policies and nothing to do with the actions of non state sanctioned individuals. Those were somewhat interesting classes so I paid attention and didn't drink gin beforehand such as in Civil Procedure class.

Fleeing felons fell under the old common law doctrine which was still held to be in effect. Essentially in times of old, all felonies were punishable by death and an "outlaw" was someone outside the protections of the law.

1930something.... A guy robbed a bank in Midland. Took off - literally with a sack of money running away. A nearby dentist across the street, who for whatever reason always kept a .30-30 in his office shot the guy in the back. The anniversary of it was mentioned in the local paper when I was a kid. Perfectly legal then, and now, because it was only means at hand to stop the flight of the felon. The anniversary of the shooting was a local event of sorts, retold from time to time in the paper. Period photos showed the dentist standing grinning with his rifle being handed some sort of reward check from the bank.

I wish that there was still an archive of old posts going back further. Before when it came up there were cases from the 90s mentioned in MI and OH where the fleeing felon rule came into effect.

Law school was eleven years ago, you can call and see if Professor Koenig still teaches. She was actually quite the liberal but knew all the interesting anomalies in Michigan law ( for example, in MI coercion was considered a valid defense to murder). Whoever is teaching crim law now, if it isn't her, should be familiar with it. You can also have your state senator or representative pose it as a question to the State AG, though the AG's opinion will be just that - an opinion.

While anecdotal advice from LE, classes, etc varies greatly, the best results - in terms of advice- for a given state will come from talking to a criminal law professor in that state. Common law, precedent etc will often contain a broader definition of such things than what one can easily google up. Or talk to a lawyer that specializes in such things. If you don't have one, I remember Sal Gani (sp?) was a decent enough guy, practiced out of Lansing.
 
Mr. Eyegots2no:
"Did I shoot 5 shots or 6?"

Thanks for noticing!!


All of this is very difficult to talk over---but---just because you can read some statutes that ARE in ENGLISH, that does not mean thet you will benefit from it---too many things can happen. And different cities in same state with different leadeers including police ---well, they might do anything to you. You could end up spending ALOT of money. This business about " Texas...is lenient..." is in that person's imagination and not based on facts---just a belief and people believe what they want to believe. You could get thrown under the bus at some cities in Texas. I do appredciate the SF ex-cop's statements however, the dead do not testify. I wish more guys like him were on the job---he cares about the good guy's.
 
What it amounts to is that the legal "test" for justification of deadly force in Missouri is NOT the direction the aggressor is traveling (towards or away), it is the aggressor's ACTIONS. There could be any number of circumstances where an aggressor was physically moving away from you where justification under our statutes could exist...

...It's not as cut and dried as you might think.

I do think we are more in agreement than not. If the BG was retreating in order to gain a better vantage point in order to continue the fight, (or any number of similar scenarios), you are indeed correct. Where it gets sticky is that in court (from what I'm told) it becomes incumbent on the homeowner to prove the BG's intent in his actions.

I would like to think that if I am ever faced with the choice, I will remain level-headed and properly assess the situation before choosing to potentially end another's life. Hopefully as soon as the BG sees that I am armed and mean business, he will choose to turn and run away. If he chooses not to, it becomes a wholly different scenario.
 
The lessons of self defense are seen in the courts of today. Whether someone is prosecuted for manslaughter, murder, and/or is sued for $1000s of dollars. Shooting to kill could be seen as excessive force especially if you aren't a police officer.

In California they had a burglar that was shot in the back while moving around in a home, the burglar was shot by the homeowner in the back, and sued the homeowner in court winning $7,000.

In California a women was running and was attacked. The boyfriend came upon the scene and stopped it. He beat the attacker into unconsciousness. He was arrested and charged with assault. The attacker sued the boyfriend and won in court.

In Colorado Springs Colorado a used car dealer after being broken into a number of times decided to camp out to protect their property. A burglar who had knives on him broken in and was shot to death by the car dealer owners. The police and the DA judged this case self defense under the "Make My Day Law." However the daughter of the deceased burglar sued the car dealer and won $270,000 for excessive force. It didn't matter that the burglar was armed with knives and could be seen as a real threat. In addition the police and the DA judged it self defense.

The District Attorneys, the attorneys, and law enforcement have a great deal to say about what self defense is and what it isn't. Your decision to use and claim self defense is judged on reasonable force and equitable force. If you shoot someone in the back you had better be able to prove that he was an imminent threat to you and/or your family and that your feared for your life and/or your family's life. If you can't prove that you will end up in jail and/or fined.
 
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