Why not a .45 for LEOs

[WR Moore]

OK, a wee bit of background here. I carried a 1911 by choice for 19 years and have toted a gun for a paycheck for nigh onto 30 years. I've also used or been issued .38 Spl, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, 9mm and 10 mm (full power). On my own time, I carry a 9.

Why didn't the .45 replace the .38? Very briefly:

1. To remove the 1911 platform from the picture I will note Mas Ayoobs comment that while it may be a superb combat weapon, it isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device for a variety of reasons.

I will also add that the platform was designed 100 years ago and while it's a marvelous device, we've learned a lot since then and there are better tools available for the purpose today. Get over it.

2. Ammunition cost-this is not a paltry consideration when you let ammo contracts in 100,000 round-or more- lots. NYPDs ammo budget was in the millions of rounds some years back.

3. Frankly, the recoil of the .38/9mm is about what the vast majority of folks can handle well given the training and practice of the average police officer. Or civilian for that matter. Since shot placement is far more important than the diameter, velocity or construction of the bullet, skill is more important than those factors and is more readily achieved with a caliber with less recoil.

If you have the money and dedication to achieve and maintain a high level of proficiency with something else, by all means use it. So long as that proficiency isn't a product of either imagination or a lack of understanding of the real world.

4. Ammunition today isn't what it was lo many years ago or even a few years ago. There is little practical difference between the various calibers today.

 

[daveh75]

There are many units using the 1911 and pretty much always have. The Army, Marines and Seals use the 1911....

Hate to argue here, but that is not the case. And just so there is not confussion, I AM NOT NOW NOR EVER HAVE BEEN IN SOF, but since they work a lot of PSD like I do I get to see a lot of them. 1911s are only made available to specialized units within USSOCOM. Army Special Forces are still issued the M9 or M11 just like the rest of us not so special folks. Unique teams within that organization are authorized "non-standard issue", but for the most part the guys that make up the A teams are carrying 9mms. Naval Special Warfare's standard is still the Sig P226 in 9mm. Some MARSOC teams have 1911s, but the rest of the Corps is carrying the M9 or M9A1. And to throw another wrench in the works....you would be surprised at the number of Glocks that belong to the U.S. government that aren't being issued out to foreign troops...

There are reasons why specialized units get 1911 firearms, why the military still uses it after 100 yrs of service and why it is one of the most sought after guns today.

Have to totally agree with you on that one. I have owned several over the years and still have one...great weapons platform, and like you said it takes training...which believe it or not pistol marksmanship is not a priority for Big Army...

 

[oldman45]

Ammunition today isn't what it was lo many years ago or even a few years ago. There is little practical difference between the various calibers today.

Next time you are in my area, we will take a few items out to the outdoor range and shoot them with various calibers and types of ammo. If you have a special gun/ammo you want to bring, then fine. Now I am not talking about paper targets either. They do not reveal a real world portrait of damage.

I am talking about a car door, a windshield, a bucket of paint and a piece of cedar wood. No, I do not buy these items. They are furnished to me by local businesses that remove them from vehicles due to chips, dents and such. These are the items one may have to shoot through in the streets.

Anyone can pick up such items from repair shops and do their own experiments. The results will shock and educate some.

 

[hatt]

Next time you are in my area, we will take a few items out to the outdoor range and shoot them with various calibers and types of ammo. If you have a special gun/ammo you want to bring, then fine. Now I am not talking about paper targets either. They do not reveal a real world portrait of damage.

I am talking about a car door, a windshield, a bucket of paint and a piece of cedar wood. No, I do not buy these items. They are furnished to me by local businesses that remove them from vehicles due to chips, dents and such. These are the items one may have to shoot through in the streets.

Anyone can pick up such items from repair shops and do their own experiments. The results will shock and educate some.

Dr. Roberts and others already do this. Except in a controlled, repeatable way. And they've concluded that proper ammo in all service calibers will perform well.

 

[M29since14]

...the 1911 was about the only .45 auto commonly available. Unfortunately, a lot of police/municipal "powers that were" at the time were afraid of it. They thought it kicked too much and were downright alarmed by the concept of "cocked and locked" carry. Some still think this way today.

Trying to avoid Caliber Wars v.186,284 - and all the other ancillary issues that attach thereby - and sticking strictly to the original question (which is unusual for me! ), I think Ron has it right.

Just "commenting": Once revolvers started to be set aside, and even a bit before that, .45 ACP was always fairly common here in Indiana. (Lots of older, small-town Chiefs with an ex-military background.) And after the mid-80s, the P220 was not uncommon. But overall, I think Ron hit the nail on the head - the Model 39/59 type guns got the greenlight initially, when the change was made wholesale, for the reasons he says. After that, at least locally, it seemed to turn into something of a money-spending free-for-all and common sense made a run for it. Buying new handguns at every whim for cops here in Indiana is just ridiculous, but a surprising amount of that was going on - until just recently.

 

[APS]

Dr. Roberts and others already do this. Except in a controlled, repeatable way. And they've concluded that proper ammo in all service calibers will perform well.

This. Peruse the m4carbine forums in their ammunition section, if you want a measured and scientific view of what modern ammunition effectiveness is.

 

[Triggernosis]

1. To remove the 1911 platform from the picture I will note Mas Ayoobs comment that while it may be a superb combat weapon, it isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device for a variety of reasons.

Can someone provide me a link to Mr. Ayoob's comments on the 1911, please?

 

[M29since14]

Presume that notion is a result of discounting any single-action, or DA/SA, handgun because of its trigger mechanism. That seems painting with an awfully broad brush. If one is only considering relatively untrained/unskilled users, that idea may have some merit. I know I would hate to be in the same room with that type of user holding a loaded 1911, but then again, it would be true if he were holding a Glock. It just isn't a logical reason to exclude the 1911 from an academic discussion of what works best.

But back to .45 ACP, it has always been accepted as something of a gold standard in my area, even when the .357 Magnum was fully in-use and after the .41 Magnum and 10mm had come along. It probably will continue to be while cartridge firearms are still in use, since it strikes a balance between power and ability to control the weapon that has always been acclaimed. I continue to agree with Ron that the .45 was more or less "passed over" because of the reasons he explained.

 

[10ring]

An argument over handgun calibers and designs. How novel. Why hasn't anyone ever had this discussion before?

Seriously, none of you will change the mind of those who don't agree with your choices and it is pointless to try. If the millions of words and numbers already printed on this topic have not changed someone's mind by now, why do you think you will?

Carry/shoot what you want or are permitted. When someone ASKS my opinion on this subject, I am happy to give it. When someone else states their opinion on this subject, and I disagree, I see no reason to correct them.

In answer to the OP, many agencies and individual officers across the country do use the .45, but it is less common than the 9mm and .40. Why this is so has less to do with which caliber is truly "better" than it does with the personal beliefs and preferences of those making the decision, budgets, politics, magazine capacities, gun weight, gun size, etc.

 

[4506517]

We carry the full size M&P 45. We use 230 grain Gold Dots. I dont think the Sheriff would have it any other way.

I dont know of a single deputy that hasnt qualified recently. Last time we had one not qualify, the instructors took her aside and worked with her until she passed.

I, for one, am quite happy I carry a 45. Wish it was something other than the M&P, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[BloodyThumb]

My younger son's department just got in Gen4 G21's. They all had Gen3 G22's. Every officer was allowed to shoot the G21 and choose to stay with the 22, or take the 21. All but a couple of the male officers went to the G21.

Side by side, the consensus was that the G21 had less recoil and they only gave up 2 rounds.

My older son's department issues SIG P226 in .40S&W, but they are considering a move to the G21 as well.

 

[Silversmok3]

Until recently having a .45 meant trading size for capacity. You could have a thin or standard width steel frame .45 ACP with no more than 10 rounds per mag, or you could have a double stack .45 that has a wider grip than a cement brick.



Now with the existence polymer frame M&P .45 and other brands high capacity .45s are coming out that have reasonably thin grips, so as time goes on id imagine .45 ACP is going to make a comeback.

Im curious how many LEO's carry a 10mm handgun for duty use.As I recall that round was designed to combine reasonable capacity with bad guy stopping energy.

 

[Buford57]

Our local PD (~60 officers) is armed exclusively with 1911 (and clone) .45s. Carried in Condition 1. The enlightened chief who instituted that policy has just retired. The acting chief is eligible to pull the pin as well. We shall see.

If recent changes in other area departments are any indication, the new chief will be a pompous demagogue from the east coast who will mandate the Kel-Tec PMR 30 in a full-flap holster during the 3 months before he (a) is indicted or (b) "retires" to take a consulting job.

 

[armsmaster270]

On a lot of departments that have the troops carry 9mm, or .40 the SWAT teams carry 1911's in .45 Go figure.

 

[anoblefox]

I am wondering what brand or weight MOTOR OIL do you all use? Laugh! Same type of comparison. I never argue with another man's/ women's choice. I am not a LEO. But I have pondered why departments do not take the time to train ALL their officers to shoot better. Having said that, if my petite wife can shoot a 45 as well as she does, in either a 1911 or non 1911 platform I might add, why can't anyone else also?

 

[usmc1369]

my edc is a cs45 i will and do carry any thing i am confidoent in including a .22 shot placement trumps all

 

[27145]

I am wondering what brand or weight MOTOR OIL do you all use? Laugh! Same type of comparison. I never argue with another man's/ women's choice. I am not a LEO. But I have pondered why departments do not take the time to train ALL their officers to shoot better. Having said that, if my petite wife can shoot a 45 as well as she does, in either a 1911 or non 1911 platform I might add, why can't anyone else also?

How often does your wife shoot? Do you want to pay cops to go to the range once a week? To me carrying a gun was just a tool. I qualified 2x a year. When the shtf I hit 3/3, one handed on a 38 Colt DS, with my shield in my left hand. Target practice is a world of difference than the real world. You just need to be taught to hit a general vital area to stop the threat. You don't need to target shoot and put 50 rounds in a quarter size hole.

If the shtf, your wife might totally miss the armed perp.

 

[IslayMalt]

How often does your wife shoot? Do you want to pay cops to go to the range once a week? To me carrying a gun was just a tool. I qualified 2x a year. When the shtf I hit 3/3, one handed on a 38 Colt DS, with my shield in my left hand. Target practice is a world of difference than the real world. You just need to be taught to hit a general vital area to stop the threat. You don't need to target shoot and put 50 rounds in a quarter size hole.

If the shtf, your wife might totally miss the armed perp.

Missing someone isn't something you will ever know until the adrenalin rush kicks in. No matter how much you practice. At least that's what I believe. I want, and plan to, take some LFI or similar courses... but you never know when the actual situation presents itself.

But I'm just curious, what does "38 Colt DS, with my shield in my left hand" mean? Shooting one handed while holding your badge out for someone to see?

 

[The Big D]

Am absolutely sure I can answer for 27145.

He was shooting at a person(s) with a .38 Colt Detective Special with his shield (i.e. badge) in his hand.

That posture is common in urban areas such as NYC if a LEO in mufti becomes involved in a situation in which a gun is deployed. Actual firing is not required.

A shield (sometimes called "tin") is universally recognized in NYC and many other areas. It enhances one's safely immensely; sadly, it is not 100% effective.

Be safe.

PS: 27145, if I am in error please accept my apology.

...

But I'm just curious, what does "38 Colt DS, with my shield in my left hand" mean? Shooting one handed while holding your badge out for someone to see?

 

[hatt]

I've never thought about that. Maybe those seemingly silly CWP badges do have some validity.