Why not a .45 for LEOs

[27145]

Actually I believe the Browning M2 has been in service longer

Why not correct the spelling of your forum user name, then come back and talk to us.

 

[617X10]

I feel this must be said, and said because its a fact we 'gun people' tend to forget-the average Joe and Jane Lawman is not on our level of gun knowledge. Furthermore one size gun and bullet does NOT fit all.

Oh sure, there are many LEOs who can debate this topic until Judgement Day, but many police and military stick their M9s and G22's in their holsters at start of shift, and put them up at the end of shift.That's it. Jeff Cooper once said a marksman has to choose to pursue firearms knowledge-no organization can 'force' someone to be a great shooter.

Its easy to say 'everyone gets a .45 1911'. Its a lot harder to get a team of people who aren't interested very much in target shooting to take time to master a platform like that. A LEO with only a casual interest in gun handling can pick up a Glock 22 .40 S&W and be trained shoot it reasonably well,as there isn't much in the owners manual beyond point and shooting it. Ditto for a policeman with a S&W 5906 or Beretta 92.

However...an LEO with a casual attitude towards their duty 1911 is a disaster waiting to happen for all parties.Good luck drawing and accurately firing a .45 ACP 1911 under life or death stress when the last time you handled it was 6 months ago.

"but Silversmok3, the 1911 was the premier pistol of the Armed Forces and police for decades in the past?"

I would submit that this was a different country back then.Not only were citizens not afraid of firearms, even casual laypeople knew the four rules and had basic exposure to firearms.Training someone to handle a 1911 back then took less work ,less money,and much less risk from PR kool-aid drinking spineless toads above the troops using them.

Today being the 'gun guy' in the military gets you strange looks from your squadron mates,the four rules are relegated to Facebook posting etiquette,and a majority of recruits from urban America into the military have never touched an actual firearm prior to basic , much less fired one.I cannot see police recruiters doing much better.

In the so called modern age of still needing to get the job done with smaller training budgets, larger legal budgets,and a recruitment base ignorant of basic gun handling experience the use of 9mm Glocks and DA/SA firearms makes sense.

As for Myself?A Cocked and locked Taurus until I get the scratch for a quality USA made 1911.

I was in the same boat as those who never touched a firearm until basic training. I wanted to get a good handgun and learn to shoot it well, and I chose a Kimber Custom II .45 Auto. I had a few friends that also wanted to learn how to shoot a handgun, and they either bought one for themselves and rented one on our weekly range trips. Most weren't willing to shell out the money for a 1911, and I believe the first gun bought by a friend was a Baby Eagle, which turned out to be a pretty good gun itself. The great thing about our weekend range trips was the amount of different handguns we were exposed to by swapping our own for a little time with the rentals or "new toys." You look back on how green behind the gills everyone was and think it's amazing that no one got hurt without the proper instruction, but now I realize that we all had a pretty big motivational factor keeping us in line. For us, it was all about peer pressure. We were all a bunch of guys who worked in the same building. I knew that if I screwed up, I would never hear the end of it. Since I REALLY didn't want that to happen, I always took the extra precautions I thought necessary to make sure I wouldn't put a hole in me or the ceiling. Kind of like loading 1, skipping 1, and loading 4 in a single action revolver. I'm sure the other fellas felt the same way, and took whatever precautionary measures they deemed necessary as well. And being AFRAID of the gun? Well, if any of us had let that be known it would have been even worse than shooting yourself in the foot. Call me crazy, but we shot 10s of thousands of rounds and the worst thing I ever saw happen was the wire that runs the target back and forth get taken out by an errant shot. And yes, we did give that guy heck. Hey, we had to get another lane, so he deserved it.

 

[FUBAR-M1A]

We are issued the Glock 22 but can carry a personally owned Glock 21 or G30. Out of 1,600 officers I think there are 6 of us who carry a G21/30.

 

[WR Moore]

"Isn't a real good choice as a conflict resolution device"---Does he say this about the 1911 specifically or all pistols in general? Mas Ayoob has a 1911 signature model, so you are going to have a hard time convincing me that those were his exact words without elaborating.

Again, if you are going to debate back up your statement with fact and not hearsay.

I'm quoting published opinion by the man on the use of the 1911 pattern as a law enforcement sidearm. I'm neither debating nor serving as your research department. You find it unlikely, read the man's collected works (I think it may have been in an American Handgunner column) or pony up and take his classes.

To put it into perspective, LEOs justifiably hold people at gunpoint about 33 times for every one shooting based on stats. Then, there's the stress involved, hormone laced blood, widely differing competence etc. So the wonderous trigger you may so love on the square range isn't a real good choice for those without considerable training (and where's the budget for that training?). BTW, the triggers on 870's & ARs have no relation in terms of either weight or length of pull to those well tuned 1911s you seem so fond of. Neither did the issue triggers on GI 1911s.

There's a whole lot more to consider when choosing a service pistol-or one to bet your life on-than the weight of the trigger. Or the mythical magic of the .45 ACP. I will note that I carried a 1911 for 19 years by choice. It won me trophies and kept me on the upper side of the grass, but there are better tools available now, all things considered. Advanced research with sensor equipped pistols has shown that even well trained individuals can unconciously get their fingers on the trigger when under high stress. A trigger action with greater length of activation and heavier weight is a wee bit of cushion against an unitentional discharge of the weapon without unduly handicapping the person toting it.

 

[jimmyj]

I have to disagree with many of these comments. Until the introduction of the “maintenance free” wonder nine in the 1980s the Colt 1911A1 was still very popular with police departments. The popularity was so high that An Introduction to Modern Police Firearms by Roberts & Bristow printed in 1969 included firearms training for the 1911 along with revolvers.

The 1911A1 has been carried by many police officers since 1920. Many of the first officers to carry the 1911 brought them back from WWI. I remember reading an NRA article years ago that more than half of the 1911s produced for WWI were “lost” out of military inventories.

You must remember that most officers did not make a lot of money on the job. The M10 was anywhere from $20.00 to $40.00 cheaper than a Colt 1911.

Leather was another problem. If you were lucky you knew someone that was retiring and could give you some leather or a buddy gained weight and sold you his old one cheap. With a revolver all you needed was a holster and belt. Ammo was carried in a pocket until the advent of dump pouches. Remember that most departments did not issue hand radios until the 1970s. If you purchased a Colt you might have to special order the holster, belt and magazine pouch from a big city. Until the late 1960s most Colt holsters were designed to work with military belts not police belts.

Ammo was another issue. Many departments might have been very liberal with the approved list of guns but any ammo other than 38 special was up to the officer to purchase for duty and range. Maintenance and repair was also up to the individual officer.

All this said Colts were very common. Most people did not notice the gun because they were so common and nothing special. Today we notice a revolver because it is something rare and out of place. I also want to say that departments are now going away from 9mm and even 40S&W back to 45ACP. Illinois has had a great increase on department authorizing the Colt 1911. The main requirement is that the weapon must have the Colt series 80 safety.

1962: My first agency issued uniforms,hat, and badge. I had to purchase everything else. Pay was $2500.00 a year. Many agencies only issued the badge.

 

[Old Corp]

The department I retired from in NC (700+ size) went to autos in 1990 with the S&W M1076 10mm. In 1999, when ammo costs became horrible for that round they went to the M4566 and CS45. I retired with, and was given a 4566. Shortly thereafter they adopted the M&P full size .45, and I understand that range scores have not been this good in a long time.