21 foot rule

[Packard]

We've been discussing in another thread in these fora, the "21 foot rule". This is the distance that someone with a knife can successfully attack a man with a gun.

I've often heard about J-frames: "Good for its intended purposes; 5 to 7 yards or closer."

So the J-frame is basically good for (if you believe the above statements) distances that will clearly get you injured or killed.

So what is wrong with the above?

 

[charlie sherrill]

J frames have a better range than depending on the shooter. I prefer the 30 ft. rule.

 

[tbury]

I can hit an 8" plate at 24 yds with either my 36 2" or my 642 1-7/8" barrels. So I disagree with people who say 21 feet is a practical limit for a J-frame. Neither gun is a target gun but if you put in the practice time you can master the accuracy of j-frame. I do find that the airweight is noticably harder to keep a good pattern with its sights so I put a Crimson Trace lazer grip on it and it is much easier to keep a tight group.

Mythbusters just did a show on the -don't bring a knife to a gunfight- rule and found that a perp with a knife can indeed close and stab a gunman at about 21 ft; however, most of the time the shooter got a shot off.

 

[Doug M.]

(Wrong forum?)

Well, first off, if you look at the original stuff from Tueller, and then the follow up material from others who have worked on the topic, 21 feet from a determined attacker with a contact weapon (knife, club, beer bottle, whatever) is WAY TOO CLOSE.

Second, if one work with their J frame and develops appropriate proficiency and mindset, using decent ammo (as I often said, I have gone full reactionary and prefer WC/SWC for such, although I would seriously consider the Black Hills standard pressure loading with the Barnes all copper HP), it cane be a functional weapon well past that distance. FOR ME, a J frame .38 is a BUG only except in very limited circumstances, so that analysis is a bit off, but there can be some for whom it is a primary for a lot of good reasons.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

We've been discussing in another thread in these fora, the "21 foot rule". This is the distance that someone with a knife can successfully attack a man with a gun.

Actually, that is the distance within which a person carrying a handgun openly cannot react fast enough to draw, shoot, and stop a knife-wielding attacker before the attacker can get to him/her. If a person is carrying concealed, I'd move that distance out to 28-30 feet.

I've often heard about J-frames: "Good for its intended purposes; 5 to 7 yards or closer."

So the J-frame is basically good for (if you believe the above statements) distances that will clearly get you injured or killed.

So what is wrong with the above?

The people who post that about J-frames are wrong. I regularly shoot my Model 37 at 25 yards with better than "minute of bad guy" accuracy.

ECS

 

[Dragon88]

So what is wrong with the above?

Lack of common sense and valid facts.

 

[rrobertson]

I dont have the accuracy that some people here have, but I can and do regularly keep all my shots from my 642 in the black on a B16 Target(5 1/2in black) at 50ft. Using the 642's regular sights and with the CT LG-305 I keep most in black on the same kind of target at 75ft with a couple fliers.

Its the people who dont practice with their firearms who make foolish claims as to the lack of ability of any firearm.

As for the 21ft/28ft rule, whichever distance you subscribe to, it has been beaten to death multiple times and as stated above/earlier Mythbusters did a show on it. If you need visual confirmation.

 

[getoff]

like many have said, my J's are capable of accurate shots at distances greater than 30-40 yds. with a little practice you can shoot a J at 50 yds. and put rounds on target, with iron sights. the 21 foot rule only applies if i don't see the attacker sooner. if a guy (or gal) is brandishing a knife, or club, and threatening me at 50 or 100 feet, i'm gonna be ready to engage. be damned the legal aspect. judged by 12 or carried by 6... not a hard choice to make.

 

[murphydog]

This is a topic for an entire book, but...

Try to avoid being 21 (or 30) feet away from a knife-wielding nutcase with your gun holstered. Of course, you can't always anticipate when trouble will find you, so train and be prepared. The J frame you carry is better than the heavy (fill in the blank) that was too much of a bother to wear that day.

 

[Whitter]

You will definitely be armed with a J frame - 5 rounds of quality ammunition is not unarmed. Your best weapon is your mind. Situational Awareness is everything. The game is to know there is a threat present well before it gets within 21 feet of you. My personal preference is about 1,000 yards with an M-21

 

[APS]

I've often heard about J-frames: "Good for its intended purposes; 5 to 7 yards or closer."

This about J frames and other "belly guns" is a popular belief among those too lazy to practice with their small guns.

 

[Moonman]

getoff,

In this state if you fire TOO FAR AWAY and you'll probably be going to the JOINT. (civilians operate with different rules than LEO'S, you're not an OFFICER OF THE LAW.)

While in the joint, you'll really learn knife fighting and self defense, or you will be carried out.

YOU MUST be in fear of imminent danger of substantial SERIOUS INJURY or DEATH to you or OTHERS. (the OTHERS can really open up a can of legal worms on interpretation of events)

YOUR interpretation of the facts may not be the same as Law Enforcement or a JUDGE/JURY.

STAND YOUR GROUND is not in effect everywhere or every place, and INCIDENTS HAVE VERY SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION.

Be Alert, Pay Attention, and be ready to Rapidly Exit the Troubled Area.

CALL 911, AND BE A GOOD WITNESS.

 

[Sebago Son]

Consider the timing of this event... the Bad Guy will be closer to you than 21 feet when you finally clear leather and begin to shoot. In actuality he will likely be almost in contact. Therefore the idea that J's are not accurate at 7, 10, or 15 yards is irrelevant.

 

[Moonman]

Up close and personal is a most common event.

BAD BREATH DISTANCES.

 

[Packard]

...
Mythbusters just did a show on the -don't bring a knife to a gunfight- rule and found that a perp with a knife can indeed close and stab a gunman at about 21 ft; however, most of the time the shooter got a shot off.

I saw that. But he was carrying hammer down over an empty chamber and had to rack the slide to get off a shot. I think he would have done better with a DA pistol or revolver.

 

[RSWMTB]

What knife-wielding BG is going to announce his intent from 30 feet away?

 

[ladder13]

Consider the timing of this event... the Bad Guy will be closer to you than 21 feet when you finally clear leather and begin to shoot. In actuality he will likely be almost in contact. Therefore the idea that J's are not accurate at 7, 10, or 15 yards is irrelevant.

Ding ding ding! The BG might be rubbing shoulders with you.

 

[StatesRightist]

I agree J frames can be sufficient as a BUG gun, if I did not, I wouldn't carry one for that role. I like mine a lot, it fills that role in much more comfortable way than anything else I've carried.

I also agree with the 21-30 foot rule. It does not take but once seeing a human being gutted, this time with a box opener, trying to hold their guts in to convince you of the threat a knife constitutes.

That said, I'm reading some of the 30 plus yard J frame comments with a twinkle in my eye...maybe you can, maybe, in a perfect environment. The 7 yd comment is aimed at the stress filled environment you are in when confronted with a deadly weapon and jerking the trigger rather than slowly engaging it as is done in stationary practice. I have seen a crime scene where two officers who were "good shots" in qualifying and a BG dropped 70 plus used pieces of brass within 4-7 yards of each other and no one got a scratch. The moral being adrenalin makes us all lesser shots.

Me personally, I want all the accuracy and round advantage I can get, which is why a J frame will never be my sole carry unless it's impossible to carry anything bigger.

As others have said, the more realistic J frame scenario is your J jammed in the guys gut going off while you are defending with your other arm. The guy's going to have 30-60 seconds of 100% performance unless Head or CS shot before your rounds affect him. Plan on defending and minimizing the damage, not dropping him and walking off untouched.

JMO YMMV.

 

[Chuck1217]

Statesrightst, thta's good info, a lot of thta on this thread. But ref: the snubbie, I think we could mention that after the one shot- maybe you should try to move the muzzle, fire again, move muzzle fire again- the ol' fire til he drops...The more holes, the faster the ineternal bleeding puts him out. Not to mention more possibilities of hitting the spine, etc.

 

[RGMoore]

The 21 foot rule assumes the BG is in full attack mode and you are not aware of his intent until he crosses that threshold. Part of the appeal of a small revolver esp with a covered hammer is that you can have your hand on it and even fire from your pocket.
My grandfather was a LEO for over 40 years and never had to draw his gun but he carried a J frame with a covered hammer in his overcoat pocket and there were many times he had someone covered but they never knew it.