21 foot rule
- Thread starter Packard
- Start date
You're probably correct, but I'd worry about that later...I think a reenactment in court with a person holding a knife a few feet away would likely draw the same reaction as yours from 12 jurors...
dougb1946
Member
The problem here may be terminology. 21 ft is not a law and not a rule. It is an observation. It refers to the fact that if a knife holder attacks you at close range, you are in trouble. If you are threatened by a man running at you with a drawn knife and see him coming at 100 ft, you are probably justified in drawing your weapon. If you are sure you are a target, you can start shooting. You may have to hire a lawyer to prove it, but I don't believe the law sets a range limit on protecting your life. The holster is just a storage device. If you know you are in deep trouble, the weapon should be in your hand.
TexasArmed
Member
I doubt that in Texas at least. And I carry two revolvers one in a pocket holster. If I was uneasy abut him my hand would already be on my pocket S&W 642-1 38 spl. I believe I can draw it faster than he can travel 21 feet. It might take me that long drawing my 44 from my galco holster. In any case I am confident even if he gets me I am taking him with me.
BearBio
Member
Who made these "rules"? They are guidance only.
Different people have different reaction times, even at different periods in your life. Bruise or pulled a muscle? Guess what you won't be as fast. Got a headache? Stomach upset or heartburn? Fighting with the significant other? Good looking young thing just walk by? Been seriously cut in a fight before? Sun in your eyes?
Get the picture? Throw in: How often do you practice? What type of holster do you have?
Clearer or fuzzier, now?
Different people have different reaction times, even at different periods in your life. Bruise or pulled a muscle? Guess what you won't be as fast. Got a headache? Stomach upset or heartburn? Fighting with the significant other? Good looking young thing just walk by? Been seriously cut in a fight before? Sun in your eyes?
Get the picture? Throw in: How often do you practice? What type of holster do you have?
Clearer or fuzzier, now?
It was never a rule until people who didn't understand what it was about called it a rule. People who never had training and didn't understand what it was about morphed it into meaning that 21 ft distance meant it was a safe distance - that you could draw and stop someone who was 21 ft from you. That's not at all what it's about.
It's the Tueller Drill. Many LEO training methods at the time was to keep about 7 yds distance from someone armed with a knife. What Tueller Drill showed was that even at 7 yds someone armed with a knife is still too close. Many LEOs were getting injured even tho they were many feet away from the attacker. Many thought they could stay arms reach distance or 10-15 ft and they were out of the danger range. What the Tueller Drill demonstrates that even when you're expecting an attack that the best you could probably hope for is you might get 1 shot off. It is not at all intended to demonstrate 7 yds as a safe distance. It demonstrates that even at that distance and even if you can get 1 shot off you're going to get cut and injured/killed.
Unfortunately, because of the uninformed, non-trained who have kept repeating the "21 ft rule" even defense attorneys are using that as 21 ft being a safe distance. That is not what Tueller says.
Someone attacks you from 21 ft you're going to get hurt and you won't be able to stop it.
It's the Tueller Drill. Many LEO training methods at the time was to keep about 7 yds distance from someone armed with a knife. What Tueller Drill showed was that even at 7 yds someone armed with a knife is still too close. Many LEOs were getting injured even tho they were many feet away from the attacker. Many thought they could stay arms reach distance or 10-15 ft and they were out of the danger range. What the Tueller Drill demonstrates that even when you're expecting an attack that the best you could probably hope for is you might get 1 shot off. It is not at all intended to demonstrate 7 yds as a safe distance. It demonstrates that even at that distance and even if you can get 1 shot off you're going to get cut and injured/killed.
Unfortunately, because of the uninformed, non-trained who have kept repeating the "21 ft rule" even defense attorneys are using that as 21 ft being a safe distance. That is not what Tueller says.
Someone attacks you from 21 ft you're going to get hurt and you won't be able to stop it.
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Old TexMex
Member
Lots of different and good experience in this thread. My only contribution, though small, is keeping an invisible circle, (walking in crowds makes me "apprehensive") and seeing who is in that circle. Soon as a suspicious cat steps in the circle,(about 30') I stop and face them, and tell them to beat it. And my hand is on, ready to draw, but still "concealed".(Might not be PC but then, I'm at work, I know). Crowds are just to be avoided when
herding my charges.
herding my charges.
keith44spl
Member
Inside thrity feet...Ya proable gonna get cut or stuck.
Might want to practice that hip shootin a bit....
Had a cat a swing an ax at me one time....
I believe, I jumped backwards 'bout twenty feet....Before I got started in...
.
Might want to practice that hip shootin a bit....
Had a cat a swing an ax at me one time....
I believe, I jumped backwards 'bout twenty feet....Before I got started in...
.
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Let's not over think this. The "21 foot rule" was originally made up to demonstrate that if you didn't carry C1, Mr. Bad Guy would be on you before you could draw, rack the slide, and engage. It also concedes 1) Your first shot would be as soon as you clear your holster/pocket. And, 2) You'll likely get hurt either way, but if you're not in C1, things could really get ugly.
old curmudgeon
Member
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I don't have the link but a couple of years ago I saw a video in which a woman, who was relatively quick, dressed as most of us do when we are carrying.
She carried at 3:00 under a light unzipped jacket.
Her "attacker" was equipped with a stage knife, probably rubber.
From 21 ft., he charged her and got her ever single time.
Three times.
Only one of the times, as I recall, did she get her weapon almost into position but got hit before she could fire. Even if she had, she would have missed and at the very best shot him in the foot.
Her failure was not that she did not have time to rack the slide....her failure was that she never cleared the holster two times out of three and the third time never got the weapon into position.
Memory can be tricky, but my memory is that he knocked her to the floor a couple of times with a manoeuvre similar to a body block.
My memory could be faulty on that last point.
But the real eye opener was that this was a staged attack with the "victim" well aware of what was about to take place and she still failed to beat him.
Unlike others here, I have no advice and will not preach any methodology.
My only advice is to think about it.
I am sure the link is still out there somewhere. If anyone has it, please post it.
tacman605
Member
I posted this on another forum a couple of years ago and it still applies. As has been stated "The Tueler Drill" is a general rule of thumb not a dead set law in place somewhere.
In regards to the OP a J frame is only as accurate as the guy/gal who is pulling the trigger just like any other weapon. I have played with them at longer ranges and once you figure out what the particular load is going to do they can be quite accurate.
About using the pelvic girdle as a target. This concept was originally thought about for attackers that were wearing body armor or those that had not responded to COM shots just like the concept of two to the body one to the head.
There are two basic ways, generally speaking, to stop an attacker. Either you cause him enough pain that he does not want to play anymore or you mechanically break him to where he simply physically can't play.
If you think of the human body like a car engine it makes a little more sense. If the oil runs out of an engine the motor will keep on working for a short time until it seizes however if you break the drive shaft off the engine keeps running but it cannot go anywhere.
Going back to the triple tap the pelvic girdle is simply a bigger target than the smaller, bobbing, moving head. A shot to this area could/would cause major blood loss but more importantly a fracture of the pelvis could easily physically put the person down. The area is very vascular, large bones to break or damage and the genital area is very receptive to pain.
You have to remember that a handgun or any firearm for that matter is simply the ultimate pain compliance device and what hurts me may not have the same effect on someone else.
Anyways sorry I got long winded here is the article with my age adjustment added.
I am not endorsing any technique, school, firearm, ammo, training or method. I am not claiming to have developed or discovered anything mentioned in this post. I have trained in the techniques listed with both simunitions and live fire drills and still have all my fingers and toes so take it for what it is worth.
Fighting inside the hole
No this is not a topic about fighting in a crater or cave. In law enforcement and training circles "The Hole" is the contact distance of zero to six feet. It is someplace you do not want to be if confronted with a lethal force situation.
A person armed with a bat, broken bottle, knife, corkscrew or simply his hands does not have to be a master of ninja skills to cause you great bodily harm at this distance.
Before you shout "I would never let him get that close to me"!!! Most if not all of us do it everyday and never think about it. Public restrooms, hallways, standing in line at McDonalds, waiting rooms at the doctors office, sitting in the lounge at the wal mart auto department waiting on the oil to get changed.
Unless you prepare for fighting at this distance you will not survive the encounter, there simply is not enough time.
For years it was taught simply get out of the hole, create distance which is great and is still a viable option but only works if the bad guy stood still and let you create that distance but the problem was they often pursued so no greater increase in distance was created. Now you were attempting to back peddle and attempt to draw your gun at the same time or had turned with your back to the bad guy with no way to fend off his attack.
But what if you looked at it this way. What if instead of creating distance you learned how to fight in the hole. Instead of backing off you created not space but time to draw your weapon.
If you are not familiar with the "Tueller Drill" you should be. It was the determination of a cop and his teaching and preaching the "21 Foot Rule" that is in use today. The bad guy can close from a distance of 21 feet and cause you harm before you can draw your gun and engage the threat.
Don't believe it try it sometime with a redgun or simunitions or toy. Have someone stand 21 feet from you and when they are ready charge. Can you get to your firearm and engage the threat? Remember reaction is slower than action.
Now imagine the same thing from six feet. What would you do? How would you react? Some techniques that are used for the Tueler drill can be adapted and used here with good results.
Lateral movement, quickly sidestepping the direct attack while reaching for and drawing your weapon.
The J hook, moving to the side and in the same direction your attacker just came from. This forces him to have to stop forward momentum and redirect in the opposite direction.
Supine, what the heck is that? Supine is just the opposite of prone. You are on your back whether by choice or the force of initial contact has put you there. You can draw, fire and accurately engage a threat from this position.
The one drawback to all this? You have to practice the techniques to see what works for you and what doesn't. I don't know about you but I am 52 years old and my body does not react the way it used to.
You must be at a higher level of proficiency with your firearm for these techniques to work. You must be able to hit a moving target at close range with most shooting done with the elbow locked in and without the use of the sights, at this distance you will not get a second chance.
You must get instruction or teach yourself to fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster and your body. You will not wait for center mass shots.
You will begin shooting as soon as the weapon clears you and is on him. It will not matter if the first shot strikes him in the thigh, then groin, then abdomen, then chest as you bring the weapon up they are all hits that cause pain and trauma that will hopefully either cause him to lose interest in you for the time being or mechanically break him so he goes down and stops the pursuit or the attack. Only after engaging and creating distance would the arms be fully extended and have any portion of a sight picture.
Well hopefully I have given you something to think about and post on. Please give opinions, options ask questions. I am not claiming to be the tell all expert if I don't know it I am sure someone on here will chime in.
In regards to the OP a J frame is only as accurate as the guy/gal who is pulling the trigger just like any other weapon. I have played with them at longer ranges and once you figure out what the particular load is going to do they can be quite accurate.
About using the pelvic girdle as a target. This concept was originally thought about for attackers that were wearing body armor or those that had not responded to COM shots just like the concept of two to the body one to the head.
There are two basic ways, generally speaking, to stop an attacker. Either you cause him enough pain that he does not want to play anymore or you mechanically break him to where he simply physically can't play.
If you think of the human body like a car engine it makes a little more sense. If the oil runs out of an engine the motor will keep on working for a short time until it seizes however if you break the drive shaft off the engine keeps running but it cannot go anywhere.
Going back to the triple tap the pelvic girdle is simply a bigger target than the smaller, bobbing, moving head. A shot to this area could/would cause major blood loss but more importantly a fracture of the pelvis could easily physically put the person down. The area is very vascular, large bones to break or damage and the genital area is very receptive to pain.
You have to remember that a handgun or any firearm for that matter is simply the ultimate pain compliance device and what hurts me may not have the same effect on someone else.
Anyways sorry I got long winded here is the article with my age adjustment added.
I am not endorsing any technique, school, firearm, ammo, training or method. I am not claiming to have developed or discovered anything mentioned in this post. I have trained in the techniques listed with both simunitions and live fire drills and still have all my fingers and toes so take it for what it is worth.
Fighting inside the hole
No this is not a topic about fighting in a crater or cave. In law enforcement and training circles "The Hole" is the contact distance of zero to six feet. It is someplace you do not want to be if confronted with a lethal force situation.
A person armed with a bat, broken bottle, knife, corkscrew or simply his hands does not have to be a master of ninja skills to cause you great bodily harm at this distance.
Before you shout "I would never let him get that close to me"!!! Most if not all of us do it everyday and never think about it. Public restrooms, hallways, standing in line at McDonalds, waiting rooms at the doctors office, sitting in the lounge at the wal mart auto department waiting on the oil to get changed.
Unless you prepare for fighting at this distance you will not survive the encounter, there simply is not enough time.
For years it was taught simply get out of the hole, create distance which is great and is still a viable option but only works if the bad guy stood still and let you create that distance but the problem was they often pursued so no greater increase in distance was created. Now you were attempting to back peddle and attempt to draw your gun at the same time or had turned with your back to the bad guy with no way to fend off his attack.
But what if you looked at it this way. What if instead of creating distance you learned how to fight in the hole. Instead of backing off you created not space but time to draw your weapon.
If you are not familiar with the "Tueller Drill" you should be. It was the determination of a cop and his teaching and preaching the "21 Foot Rule" that is in use today. The bad guy can close from a distance of 21 feet and cause you harm before you can draw your gun and engage the threat.
Don't believe it try it sometime with a redgun or simunitions or toy. Have someone stand 21 feet from you and when they are ready charge. Can you get to your firearm and engage the threat? Remember reaction is slower than action.
Now imagine the same thing from six feet. What would you do? How would you react? Some techniques that are used for the Tueler drill can be adapted and used here with good results.
Lateral movement, quickly sidestepping the direct attack while reaching for and drawing your weapon.
The J hook, moving to the side and in the same direction your attacker just came from. This forces him to have to stop forward momentum and redirect in the opposite direction.
Supine, what the heck is that? Supine is just the opposite of prone. You are on your back whether by choice or the force of initial contact has put you there. You can draw, fire and accurately engage a threat from this position.
The one drawback to all this? You have to practice the techniques to see what works for you and what doesn't. I don't know about you but I am 52 years old and my body does not react the way it used to.
You must be at a higher level of proficiency with your firearm for these techniques to work. You must be able to hit a moving target at close range with most shooting done with the elbow locked in and without the use of the sights, at this distance you will not get a second chance.
You must get instruction or teach yourself to fire as soon as the weapon clears the holster and your body. You will not wait for center mass shots.
You will begin shooting as soon as the weapon clears you and is on him. It will not matter if the first shot strikes him in the thigh, then groin, then abdomen, then chest as you bring the weapon up they are all hits that cause pain and trauma that will hopefully either cause him to lose interest in you for the time being or mechanically break him so he goes down and stops the pursuit or the attack. Only after engaging and creating distance would the arms be fully extended and have any portion of a sight picture.
Well hopefully I have given you something to think about and post on. Please give opinions, options ask questions. I am not claiming to be the tell all expert if I don't know it I am sure someone on here will chime in.
Years back I read a article written by Massad Ayoob about doing "low" shots in a serious you or him situation. He stated then that while not necessarily a killing shot it most definitely is a good stopping shot.
To me that made a lot of sense and if you’re a quick trigger your first shot will hit groin and quite possibly your next shots will stitch up and catch COM. In a Oscar Sierra situation that could be the best scenario.
One of my friend’s son was a SEAL and he said that a unarmed fighting move they practiced was a blow to the groin area that could break up cartilage and drop a opponent real painfully, fast and easy.
To me that made a lot of sense and if you’re a quick trigger your first shot will hit groin and quite possibly your next shots will stitch up and catch COM. In a Oscar Sierra situation that could be the best scenario.
One of my friend’s son was a SEAL and he said that a unarmed fighting move they practiced was a blow to the groin area that could break up cartilage and drop a opponent real painfully, fast and easy.
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..... I believe I can draw it faster than he can travel 21 feet. It might take me that long drawing my 44 from my galco holster. In any case I am confident even if he gets me I am taking him with me.
The idea is to NOT get hurt, not to die and take the bad guy with you....
And you have to keep in mind that you may get a shot off, but real life isn't like in the movies where if you shoot the bad guy crumbles and falls down. No, you may shoot that little .44 dry and the bad guy just keeps plunging that knife into your chest.
Not trying to start a war, just something to think about.
Hi:
I am not very good with a "J" frame 2" at 25 yards.
So if a BG with a knife is running at me, He is going to cut me in my rear as I am going to be running away !
P.S. I doubt that a "J" frame is going to stop a determine attacker armed with a knife charging anyone. I think only a shotgun blast is going to stop the attacker.
Didn't we learn this in the early 1900s at the Phillipine Islands ?
I am not very good with a "J" frame 2" at 25 yards.
So if a BG with a knife is running at me, He is going to cut me in my rear as I am going to be running away !
P.S. I doubt that a "J" frame is going to stop a determine attacker armed with a knife charging anyone. I think only a shotgun blast is going to stop the attacker.
Didn't we learn this in the early 1900s at the Phillipine Islands ?
We dumped the puny .38 and went back to a.45! While nothing is the perfect fight stopper a bigger .45 beats a J frame .38 hands down.
I carried a full sized .45 for years (CCW) I have now replaced it with a XDs.45, same sized hole but much smaller& easier to carry and hide. It actually holds 1 more round than a J as a bonus!
gaucho1
Member
One of the myths about the switch to .45 because of the problems dropping Moro warriors is..................
Are you ready?
The .45 was also mostly unsuccessful as well as the the .30 Krag.
12 gauge buckshot was reported to be the most dependable by the
Troops who faced these attacks for close range stops.
Makes sense when you think about it
Are you ready?
The .45 was also mostly unsuccessful as well as the the .30 Krag.
12 gauge buckshot was reported to be the most dependable by the
Troops who faced these attacks for close range stops.
Makes sense when you think about it
One of the myths about the switch to .45 because of the problems dropping Moro warriors is..................
Are you ready?
The .45 was also mostly unsuccessful as well as the the .30 Krag.
12 gauge buckshot was reported to be the most dependable by the
Troops who faced these attacks for close range stops.
Makes sense when you think about it
Hollywood made mention of this in the 1939 Gary Cooper movie "The Real Glory". A Colt New Service .45 Colt caliber failed to stop a Moro with a bolo charging a Army Officer
lawandorder
Member
This is one of truest statements in this thread,
"One thing to remember, in a knife encounter, you can ABSOLUTELY count on the fact that you will get cut/stabbed. Accept it and drive on. Work through it and don't give up. Don't let the sight of blood or the sensation of pain shut you down."
I am fairly competent with my daily carry, a 649. I feel that I could put hits on target but as far as my chances of stopping an Emotionally Disturbed Person or one ramped up on chemicals charging me with a knife from inflicting injuries on me I would rather have an 870.
I have been cut and didn't know it for a bit.
"One thing to remember, in a knife encounter, you can ABSOLUTELY count on the fact that you will get cut/stabbed. Accept it and drive on. Work through it and don't give up. Don't let the sight of blood or the sensation of pain shut you down."
I am fairly competent with my daily carry, a 649. I feel that I could put hits on target but as far as my chances of stopping an Emotionally Disturbed Person or one ramped up on chemicals charging me with a knife from inflicting injuries on me I would rather have an 870.
I have been cut and didn't know it for a bit.
kraigwy
US Veteran
Well now that we are into "knife response stories" I'll relate one.
I wear reading glasses. Left them at home one night and was planning on stopping by the house after roll call.
As I was heading home to get my glasses, I got a call of a disturbance where someone got cut. I arrived to see the bad guy start to run from the house, see me, and turned threatening me with the knife. I pulls my service revolver and tells him to loose the knife.
Just at this instant my pager goes off (one of those pre-cell phone voice pagers). It was my wife, she says "you left your glasses at home".
The bandit looks and me, says "you can't see to shoot anyway", then threw down the knife and booked.
I was laughing so hard I couldn't do anything, my back up had to show up to catch the guy.
I wear reading glasses. Left them at home one night and was planning on stopping by the house after roll call.
As I was heading home to get my glasses, I got a call of a disturbance where someone got cut. I arrived to see the bad guy start to run from the house, see me, and turned threatening me with the knife. I pulls my service revolver and tells him to loose the knife.
Just at this instant my pager goes off (one of those pre-cell phone voice pagers). It was my wife, she says "you left your glasses at home".
The bandit looks and me, says "you can't see to shoot anyway", then threw down the knife and booked.
I was laughing so hard I couldn't do anything, my back up had to show up to catch the guy.
MaximumLawman
Member
Should be known as the "21-Foot Defense". It's a defense to bring up when you're accused of using too much force with a gun against someone with a knife. Other than that, it's mostly meaningless.
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