21 foot rule

[szuppo]

If you think you are going to be able to shoot someone in a specific area during an encounter you are mistaken. You don't get a nice clean sight picture and time to place your shots in a nice tight group. Center mass until the threat no longer exists.

 

[TexasArmed]

This is so very true.

It is also true however; that some of us HAVE TO STAND OUR GROUND! What about the guy with crutches, or; in a wheel chair?

In my case, at the young and tender age of 62; running and attemping to flee is not an option. I've had both knees replaced, and a shoulder replaced. Additionally I have breathing difficulty due to suffering two massive pulmonary embolisms some time ago. I can walk OK, but I can't run.

Every thing you have said is also true.

I too carry a J frame as a BUG. Unlike you however, I carry one as a EDC in addition to the one as a BUG. It is what works best for me.

Having survived a gunfight in 1996, and after several reconstructive surgeries to my left hand; I now have only 50% grip strength, and one less finger. I can not "weak hand" shoot a semi auto in my left hand; nor operate the slide if I have a weapon malfunction. I can operate, shoot and reload any of my revolvers with either hand. Thus, I feel revolver(s) make the most sense for me.

I have a 7 shot 2¼" barrel 357 Magnum as my EDC gun in fall and winter; and a 5 shot snubby 357 J frame in spring and summer. I also have a 5 shot J frame 38 Special as my BUG. I carry both primaries with 357 Mag ammunition, all reloads, both speed loaders and speed strips; carry 38 Special for obvious reasons.

Just my $0.02 about what works for me.

I share that situation with you, regarding in my condition I must stand my ground, so I consider myself fortunate to live in Texas with strong "Stand Your Ground" provisions. It is not designed to give someone the right to go looking for trouble, and is not likely to be changed. I too carry a J Frame for backup, a S&W 38 Spl airweight. In Texas if we are handicapped we do not have to wait for someone to assault us with their fists before warning them, drawing and acting in self defense. I do not intend to become a victim of being shot with my own guns. I would be apprehensive regarding living in states with a duty to retreat. Retreat is not an option for the handicapped nor for someone who is protecting another person who is also handicapped. Fortunately I have not yet been involved in a gunfight as a civilian. I am currently following a case in Dallas where someone with a permit acted to stop an attacker who was randomly attacking customers, and this attacker was unarmed. I believe in Texas that this will be no billed by the grand jury if it is prosecuted. In any case there will be significant legal expenses, and if one is not prepared for that, their choice is just to not carry. If a handicapped person with significant medical expenses is prosecuted and sent to the "joint" the cost to the State would be a lot more than the regular cost of maintaining inmates. I have not been to the "joint" but I have been in places worse.

 

[W.E.G.]

Almost impossible to defend against an assassin.

Against other thugs, your judgment, training, and skills will come into play.

The 21-feet thing is just one of many issues to weigh.

 

[feralmerril]

Movies and tv are a joke on this. You always see a BG holding a gun on someone two feet away after already shooting someone and telling them how they are going to kill them etc. My chief was a old retired chicago street cop. He demostraited to me how quick he could take a gun away from you if you are in arms reach. Then he had me try it to him. I was/am a big slow type. Once you practice a little it works pretty good. Who ever movesw first is likely to win. Most of us already have seen yul brenner in a old western have a guy clap his hands when he supposedly see`s the other guy start to draw and how the guy will draw and have the barrel in between the guys hands before he can clap, right? It works! Well this is another version of that. If someone is dumb enough to hold a gun on you and is within arms reach it works well in reverse. You clap your hands over his gun but you do it with your hands offset. Assume you are right handed. Your left hand should be the hands width forward of your right hand as you clap them over the gun he is holding on you. Once you move you dont stop there but continue to follow through. Your left hand shoves his right hand away from the grip as your right hand pushs the barrel to your side away from you. He will not be able to hold the gun as it will break his trigger finger if he could.
Belive this or not I have seen this work sucessfully with a already cocked revolver! You will end up with the gun and the barrel will be in your right hand. Now if you want to get cute, its easy to also immediately swing it back and hit him alongside the head buffalowing him! I have seen this work! After doing this, you never will hold a gun on someone close, but will make them step back aways untill the cavery comes. I did just that one time to two guys.

 

[Chuck1217]

Mas Ayoob encourages pelvic shots, but not as a specific target. He says the pelvis- and the privates- are excellent targets. Assuming you have time to display your weapon, he says nothing is a better deterrent than seeing a muzzle aimed at the privates. The problem with pelvic shots (remember they are essentially center-mass, just at the lower level) is you need to really damage the pelvic bone to make them drop. So many things to consider, like, a 22 probably isn't going to do enough damage to the pelvis to stop him- someone mentioned back-pedqaling when the attack comes, and that's strongly emphasized by SD instructors I've heard. I, too, have bad knees, shouldetrs, and need to be especially aware of surroundings. If aware enough, I hopefully can back-pedal fast enough to draw- and as I raise the pistol I will NOT wait til I get to heart-level- I will begin shooting at the knee-level probably, and fire as my gun-hand rises. Hit the thigh, the pelvis, the privates, the belly, the chest- obviously with that action you are risking what is behind your target. I don't know what I will actually do should the day come- but I do know I'm gonna try to be SA as much/often as possible. I know some have strong opinions about only shooting at the chest- I have heard ''experts' say different, and I think I'll listen to them.

 

[STCM(SW)]

I see no one has considered the element of surprise, with you or with the BG.
Does make a difference.....

 

[kraigwy]

This about J frames and other "belly guns" is a popular belief among those too lazy to practice with their small guns.

That's it in a nutshell. People too lazy/busy to practice.

I like to shoot. I retired from 20 years of LE about the same time I retired from the NG. I ran the marksmanship unit for the AK NG and was a firearms instructor with the Anchorage Police Dept. I like to shoot.

When I retired I wanted to move back to Wyoming and buy a place where I could shoot in my yard any time and as often as I wanted. I did and I do shoot quite a bit. I carry a 642 in my pocket (no holster) and I practice with it A LOT.

I've always been the type who walks around with my hands in my pocket. I still do.

I walk around my back yard range drawing and shooting shootgun hulls laying around. I even have shot some ICORE and Bullseye matches with my 642 (didn't win, but I've learned to shoot my pocket revolver).

As to the 21 rule; Never paid attention to it. Might as well be the 100 yard rule if one doesn't practice.

But I would consider the 21 foot problem being speed more then accuracy. How fast can a baNdit cover 21 feet vs. how long it takes you to get your revolver in action.

Using a shot timer, and my hand on my gun in my pocket, I like to keep my first shot about 1/2 second, hitting the "kill zone" in a target at 7 yards.

I just reciently got back from a road trip to Portland to visit my daughter. We went shooting. She asked if I was really as fast as Grandma says. (Grandma being wife, her step mother).

I handed her the shot timer and said "lets see". She got behind me and hit the button. When the "beep" went off I drew and fired. .45 seconds.

Another thing I like to practice, and deminstrated for her is drawing and firing when someone has the drop on you.

I had my daughter point her gun at her target, I told her to get ready, finger on the trigger, safety off, (remember she's pointing at her target), When she sees me start to draw she was to fire, the ideal was to see who gets the shot off first.

I ask her is she was ready, yeap, I told her I was going to draw, she said OK, I'm ready, I fired, she said she wasn't ready. I did this three times, and always got the shot off first.

This is while she was knowing what I was going to do, few bandits expect people to draw when the bandit has the drop on them.

Its really simple, its faster to act then re-act.

There is no trick. I'm 64 (will be 65 in 10 days), I'm not in shape. I AM NOT A PISTOL SHOOTER, mainly a rifle shooter, I have to work hard to keep half way dicent with a pistol or revolver.

This can be seen if you go to the matches we have, I shoot some sort of action pistol match every other week. Don't win much, I'm too slow, mainly in the reloading department. Accuracy isn't too bad, but I'm slow moving from target to target.

I do dry fire a heck of a lot.

The point being, its not 21 feet, its whether one wants to take the time and effort to practice. I'll admit, if I lived in town and had limited access to a range, I probably would be too lazy to go often.

As to where to shoot. Read Captain's Fairbairn - Sykes' book "Shoot to Live".

Fairbairn was the chief of the Shanghai Police dept when gangs ran the city. He was involved, one way or the other, in over 600 shootings.

Two things you will get from the book, bandits, when shot, even with a 45 seldom go down. There is no such thing as a guarinteed killing shot with a pistol.

The second thing is if one is "gut shot" though they may not die or stop right away, they normally drop what they have and grab their stomach.

We all know that if we've been hit in the stomach.

It ain't about the gun, its about what you do with it. Practice is the name of the game. You don't have to be young and in shape. I'm not. Besides being old, I have several stints in my blood vanes and have COPD. I ain't gonna last long in a fight, but I bet I can last 1/2 second.

I spend a lot of time attending my granddaughters' sporting events, vollyball, basketball, track, etc. Those young ladies are in shape and fast. The fastest of the lot can't cover 21 feet in 1/2 second.

As a side note, and un-related. I'm a firm believer that SD pistol/revover practice should be with one hand. In my LE career, and my time as an infantryman in Vietnam when I used a revolver or pistol, I can't remember a time where I was able to use two hands, something was always in the other hand, flashlight, door knob, mirror, something.

PRACTICE IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

 

[Lost Lake]

With all due respect Captain, you will not be drawing and firing in 1/2 second walking through a crowded mall, looking at a bird in a tree or stepping out of your car. I am amazed with your speed, and it really is impressive (I'd like to try but I'm sure I will be WELL over a second to draw and fire with my hand already on the gun...) but we need to remember the element of surprise.

Bad guys often come out of nowhere. Purse snatchers are not seen running toward you. Bad guys sneak up on you sometimes. The 21 foot rule makes me think well outside my normal safety zone of 8-10 feet. That guy with the shifty eyes wearing a hoodie and dark glasses on the other side of the street? Yeah, he could be a problem. Look away for a second and he could turn and start sprinting toward you. And your hand may be pointing out a landmark while you hold a door for your daughter. Even if you got your gun and made a lethal shot, the bad guy can still live for 30 or 40 seconds without a heart.

I think it's great that you are practicing, and I will practice more too, but don't believe that a quick shot means you are safe within 30 feet... or maybe even 40 feet. But I DO believe you are more prepared than 98% of the people out there, including ME!

Thank you for your service, and for inspiring me to train a new way.

 

[kraigwy]

you will not be drawing and firing in 1/2 second walking through a crowded mall, looking at a bird in a tree or stepping out of your car

OK, lets assume you are correct and there is no "awarness" on my part.

Which would be better, to assume it can't be done and not practice, or you assume maybe you can pull it off so you constantly practice.

Of the two assumptions, which would give you a better chance of survival?

And the worse case, I mention I like to shoot, this pactice allows me to enjoy my sport.

 

[M3Stuart]

Ok, from now on, if some guy is running at me from 21' away with a knife I'll just pull out my knife, extend my arm and let him impale himself.

Then I won't have to worry about shooting from too far away (legal issues), missing, etc. If he pulls up before impaling himself, then I'll be able to draw and get off the shot, unless of course he's running the other way.... Either way, its over.

 

[RSWMTB]

This whole thread seems to make the assumption that the BG will make his/her intention known from a long distance...


Not always a realistic scenario...


Most BGs are going to wait till they are 'on top of you' to launch...


.

 

[Larry from Bend]

Being aware and keeping your head on a swivel is everything ---

I will say that on many occasions I've wrapped my hand around my pocket-carried Model 38 when "something didn't look right".

I wouldn't have had a grip around an IWB holstered gun in the same instances and I figure a mimumim of 1.5 seconds to shoot if my hand is away from the gun. WIth my hand on a pocketed Model 38, I can easily cut that time in half. That's part of the reason I like pocket carry -- and J frames.

 

[Lost Lake]

OK, lets assume you are correct and there is no "awarness" on my part.

Which would be better, to assume it can't be done and not practice, or you assume maybe you can pull it off so you constantly practice.

Of the two assumptions, which would give you a better chance of survival?

And the worse case, I mention I like to shoot, this pactice allows me to enjoy my sport.

Don't get me wrong, your practice is great and you sound like a heck of a shooter, but that's not the 21 foot rule point.

The point of the rule is that bad guys can get to you from farther than you may think.

Even if you are the fastest gun in the world, a guy can still get you from quite a distance.

 

[McBear]

This whole thread seems to make the assumption that the BG will make his/her intention known from a long distance...

Not always a realistic scenario...

Most BGs are going to wait till they are 'on top of you' to launch...
.

Being aware and keeping your head on a swivel is everything ---

I am pretty spatially aware and the three times in my life that I have had surprises I would have to enter this discussion regarding the FIVE FOOT rule. All three turned out well due to quick thinking rather than quick draw. Even being young and immortal at 20-21 it is extremely surprising how quick things actually happen.

 

[Hunterfz6]

I actually practice the 21 foot rule with my brother, we both have black belts in martial arts. If you consider, it takes less than 2 seconds for a man to cover 21 feet, it takes you .5 seconds to realize the threat, .5 seconds to decide what to do, .5 seconds to pull you gun and being firing, you have .5 seconds to either stand your ground and shoot, or you can change where your standing so that when your being charged your not in the line of attack. Think bull fighting. When he charges me, I step left quick stepping out of his path get distance then draw.

 

[Stu Honea]

Statesrightst, thta's good info, a lot of thta on this thread. But ref: the snubbie, I think we could mention that after the one shot- maybe you should try to move the muzzle, fire again, move muzzle fire again- the ol' fire til he drops...The more holes, the faster the ineternal bleeding puts him out. Not to mention more possibilities of hitting the spine, etc.

Chuck, I just revisited this thread,and agree.This is the reason I always train for effective hits in various areas vs.tight groups. Good thought process,sir.

 

[cbr6864]

The sad part is he you defend yourself and the attacker was more than 10' away you will most likely be charged

 

[66snub]

In regard to the 21 foot rule, it's not the weapon that you are armed with that you have to consider, but your tactics. I am a Defensive Tactics instructor at my department, and we are constantly working with this specific scenario.

What we have come to find out is, it is feasible/possible to draw and fire your weapon at a charging attacker armed with a knife, but in doing so, we have only been able to do this in a very limited number of ways.

It is my opinion, as well as my experience, that this seems to have the most chance of success when you are drawing/firing while quickly retreating. You have to create distance for yourself to give you time to react. Our motto for our program is, "The one who controls the distance, controls the fight".

Leo's, as well as CCW folks are going to generally be reactionary, as opposed to preemptive. We will constantly be reacting to something that is already happening or has already begun. Your surroundings and environment is going to have a very large impact on your list of options. If you are in the confines of a room or hallway, you may as well forget your gun for now and go "hands-on". If you are outdoors or in a larger area, this gives you the advantage of mobility.

One thing to remember, in a knife encounter, you can ABSOLUTELY count on the fact that you will get cut/stabbed. Accept it and drive on. Work through it and don't give up. Don't let the sight of blood or the sensation of pain shut you down.

The presence of a knife is a truly frightening thing (google knife wounds and knife fighting) and you should never, ever underestimate someone with "just a knife".

 

[xswilly]

another thing nobodys has really mentioned is
reaction time to decide, if this is the time to pull the gun out
for most of us, this would be the first time we ever had to do this.

 

[szuppo]

Mas Ayoob encourages pelvic shots, but not as a specific target. He says the pelvis- and the privates- are excellent targets. Assuming you have time to display your weapon, he says nothing is a better deterrent than seeing a muzzle aimed at the privates. The problem with pelvic shots (remember they are essentially center-mass, just at the lower level) is you need to really damage the pelvic bone to make them drop.

How many shootouts has Mas been in? Oh, none.