21 foot rule

StatesRightist said:
As others have said, the more realistic J frame scenario is your J jammed in the guys gut going off while you are defending with your other arm. The guy's going to have 30-60 seconds of 100% performance unless Head or CS shot before your rounds affect him.
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J frame mindset: Get to the head as soon as possible. Then again, that should probably be the "any handgun" mindset as they are a, relatively speaking, weak weapon.
 
I've yet to see a quality-made handgun that doesn't have more inherent accuracy built into it than 99% of it's users will ever be able to get out of it. When you add in the stress of a dynamic, life-threatening encounter, that 99% figure goes down much closer to 0%. Comparing handgun accuracy at typical fighting distances when the operators are under severe stress has about as much practical value as comparing the impact of the color of the shirts those operators are wearing. In other words, the operator's mindset, skill level, physiological state, and amount of advance warning of the attack will have a lot greater bearing on the outcome of the event than will the inherent accuracy of the gun he/she is shooting.
 
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It does not make a difference whether you have a J or a K or a Glock or a Desert Eagle. The main problem is having the reaction times sufficient to recognize the threat, react by drawing your weapon and shooting. Your body is going to move in slo-mo initially and the BG will already have started his move toward you. You have to be able to react faster than you will ever realize. With the threat in your face you must be able to move in a fluid motion and hope nothing gets snagged. I was in three shootings and the distances varied from 4-30 feet. My anxiety level was so high that only by training was I able to get off the first shot, but I did each time. Another thing remember you will probably fire your weapon from no more than one foot in front of you instead of arms extended. If the BG is charging from 21 or even 28 feet there will not be enough time for a sight picture or to use your laser. You must practice and practice and then practice more. Oh yes then practice some more. Just because you can draw fast that alone does not ensure a shot to center mass.
 
Circle8 said:
The main problem is having the reaction times sufficient to recognize the threat, react by drawing your weapon and shooting.
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DING! DING! DING!!!



Circle8 for the win!



.
 
Moonman]getoff said:
I agree J frames can be sufficient as a BUG gun, if I did not, I wouldn't carry one for that role. I like mine a lot, it fills that role in much more comfortable way than anything else I've carried.

I also agree with the 21-30 foot rule. It does not take but once seeing a human being gutted, this time with a box opener, trying to hold their guts in to convince you of the threat a knife constitutes.

That said, I'm reading some of the 30 plus yard J frame comments with a twinkle in my eye...maybe you can, maybe, in a perfect environment. The 7 yd comment is aimed at the stress filled environment you are in when confronted with a deadly weapon and jerking the trigger rather than slowly engaging it as is done in stationary practice. I have seen a crime scene where two officers who were "good shots" in qualifying and a BG dropped 70 plus used pieces of brass within 4-7 yards of each other and no one got a scratch. The moral being adrenalin makes us all lesser shots.

[Me personally, I want all the accuracy and round advantage I can get, which is why a J frame will never be my sole carry unless it's impossible to carry anything bigger.

As others have said, the more realistic J frame scenario is your J jammed in the guys gut going off while you are defending with your other arm. The guy's going to have 30-60 seconds of 100% performance unless Head or CS shot before your rounds affect him. Plan on defending and minimizing the damage, not dropping him and walking off untouched.

JMO YMMV.
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Every thing you have said is also true.

I too carry a J frame as a BUG. Unlike you however, I carry one as a EDC in addition to the one as a BUG. It is what works best for me.

Having survived a gunfight in 1996, and after several reconstructive surgeries to my left hand; I now have only 50% grip strength, and one less finger. I can not "weak hand" shoot a semi auto in my left hand; nor operate the slide if I have a weapon malfunction. I can operate, shoot and reload any of my revolvers with either hand. Thus, I feel revolver(s) make the most sense for me.

I have a 7 shot 2¼" barrel 357 Magnum as my EDC gun in fall and winter; and a 5 shot snubby 357 J frame in spring and summer. I also have a 5 shot J frame 38 Special as my BUG. I carry both primaries with 357 Mag ammunition, all reloads, both speed loaders and speed strips; carry 38 Special for obvious reasons.

Just my $0.02 about what works for me.
 
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How about the "1 in 1 billion gonna happen to you - rule"

I've heard the 21' Rule over 20 plus years ago. Took it for what it was, just another scenario that I put in the "toolbox". Does it change how I go about my daily life, no, not really. I don't walk around this world trying to keep a distance of 21' from any and everyone I see. It was and is intended for LEO's in the course of their duties to be prepared for this type of event and to keep aware of the dangers.
Read less, train more and stop worrying about things that most likely will never happen to you. We can all present "What if's" until we are blue in the face. The key is training and being aware.
 
szuppo said:
How about the "1 in 1 billion gonna happen to you - rule"

I've heard the 21' Rule over 20 plus years ago. Took it for what it was, just another scenario that I put in the "toolbox". Does it change how I go about my daily life, no, not really. I don't walk around this world trying to keep a distance of 21' from any and everyone I see. It was and is intended for LEO's in the course of their duties to be prepared for this type of event and to keep aware of the dangers.
Read less, train more and stop worrying about things that most likely will never happen to you. We can all present "What if's" until we are blue in the face. The key is training and being aware.
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Whoa there, step off that high horse for a second.... :p

Not everyone is as street wise as you are. I think of the 21 foot rule as an wake up call for anyone who thinks someone a distance away isn't a threat. ;)

Perhaps some kook pulls a knife in a crowd and a novice thinks 'well he can't hurt me he's a good 10 paces away...' Nope, wake up call! Someone can cover that ground before you could get a shot off....

Or maybe you walk in a bank that's being robbed and the robber turns and sees you. Can you get out the door or draw your gun? I follow a 30 foot rule, the length of my living room.... If Mr. Bad Guy is that close, I'm on high alert. Further away and maybe I'll just slink away without him noticing.... :cool:
 
Not a "High Horse" whatsoever. I just don't worry about a 21" rule, or what ammo I shoot in my house for fear of over penetration, or whether or not I am "printing" or whether this new super duper self defense hollowpoint is better that the other brand. Nor do I worry about which Navy Seal lubricant is best this week or if a photographers vest makes me a target. Or if a CCW badge is a good idea (it's still not)
Shall I continue.......:)

Too much emphasis is put upon "what if" scenarios and internet gun forum lore. If you put all that emphasis into "TRAINING" and I mean actual training at the Range instead of throwing lead downrange you will be far better prepared than reading about a 21" rule here on the S&W Forum or whether or not a fanny pack makes you look gay (it does) :)
 
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szuppo said:
Not a "High Horse" whatsoever. I just don't worry about a 21" rule, or what ammo I shoot in my house for fear of over penetration, or whether or not I am "printing" or whether this new super duper self defense hollowpoint is better that the other brand. Nor do I worry about which Navy Seal lubricant is best this week or if a photographers vest makes me a target. Or if a CCW badge is a good idea (it's still not)
Shall I continue.......:)

Too much emphasis is put upon "what if" scenarios and internet gun forum lore. If you put all that emphasis into "TRAINING" and I mean actual training at the Range instead of throwing lead downrange you will be far better prepared than reading about a 21" rule here on the S&W Forum or whether or not a fanny pack makes you look gay (it does) :)
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I agree 110%!.

Just saying the 21' rule is nothing more than saying even when a guy is waaaaay over there, he can still get ya.

So practice that way and be aware of it. Expand your danger zone to something more than arm's reach. Seems like we agree.
 
We ran an interesting drill in one of our local matches. Shooter faces downrange with target at 5 yards. Runner stands 7 yards away and 90° to the left of shooter, and slightly behind. Runner then runs toward shooter with objective of touching shooter on back. Shooter waits until runner moves, then draws and engages target. Shooter wins if he hits target kill zone before being touched. Everyone gets a chance to be shooter or runner.

Approximate winning results:
Shooters - 20%
Runners - 80%

Maybe 40% of shooters got a shot off before being touched - at least half missed the kill zone. Nobody got a second shot off. Of the shooters that won, over half had "slow" runners. So maybe 10 % of the shooters were both fast and accurate enough to get an accurate shot off - and they likely would have gotten cut anyway.

This didn't prove a lot except maybe just outshooting the guy was not going to work very well. It has been my experience that nobody escapes getting cut in a knife fight - the winner is usually the guy that accepts that and manages to avoid lethal cuts while administering his own. Maybe the best way of handling a knife attacker is simultaneously fending off the knife while getting your gun into action, that is, defending the knife with your weak hand arm (use the outside of the arm) while point shooting with your strong hand - several times.

Buck
 
Training is good advise,.... not letting 'em get closer than 21' is good advise too. Know in YOUR mind what your plan is and whenever someone does have ill intentions towards you put your plan into action. Make haste slowly but react. Only YOU can save yourself.
 
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The times when I ran this drill with a shock knife welding attacker for increased stress, the momentum would carry them into you. They are 3yds out before you even clear the holster. Best to backpedal and sidestep quickly while firing to arm extension.
This really pushes the envelope when you have a 5 shot pocket-carried gun.
 
mudman bob said:
Okay, with that said, anyone want to comment on motor nerve shot placement to shorten forward momentum?
Click to expand...

I've heard that the best way to drop someone was a shot to the
pelvic bone (hip/ waist area.) Keep in mind that if they have more
than a knife or a club, etc. they would still pose a serious threat.
 
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