Does a sign prempt your right to carry?

[to9]

In MN. you have to honor any a posted sign . But that sign has to a leagal sign meaning correct size with correct letter size and posted on every exit/entry . If not you can argue it . But doing so and causing a stink and getting the law involved may make it hard to get your permit renewed as you are now a trouble maker . Just sayin . Be discreet .

 

[LenS]

Goes without saying -- I'd rather violate a misdemeanor carry law and successfully protect myself or loved ones rather than otherwise, if it ever came to such an easy choice, but the OP's question was whether or not a business can legally prohibit him from carrying in their establishment, and the answer is "yes" if state or local law permits.

I'll contend that even if state law does not permit, the businesses can legally prohibit someone from carrying in their establishment. Merely by asking someone to leave that they know/suspect might be carrying, they invoke the right to "trespass" someone. It's not a gun issue, as "trespassing" someone (asking them to leave or they can be cited/arrested for criminal trespass) can be for any reason whatsoever (other than blatant discrimination against protected classes of people - and gun owners aren't one of those protected classes).

 

[Hapworth]

I'll contend that even if state law does not permit, the businesses can legally prohibit someone from carrying in their establishment. Merely by asking someone to leave that they know/suspect might be carrying, they invoke the right to "trespass" someone. It's not a gun issue, as "trespassing" someone (asking them to leave or they can be cited/arrested for criminal trespass) can be for any reason whatsoever (other than blatant discrimination against protected classes of people - and gun owners aren't one of those protected classes).

You're right, any business can ask you to leave (for any reason) and if you don't you're committing trespass, which if invoked is de facto prohibiting someone from carrying in the establishment -- but it's not legally the same as prohibiting someone from carrying on the premises, which requires force of law behind it.

 

[Dave Ki]

My take is, that it would be up to the establishment to press charges on the violation, if they notice you are packing.
I don't think they will, but you would have to do some explaining, given the high state of alert now and it will cost you some serious money to defend.
Given that, it is not a place protected by the law like courts, government buildings, airports, schools, bars, etc.

Hi.I'm new here,but I wonder,how many of these no guns or firearms signs you see are legal?In as much as they state in compliance with such and such ordinance and statute,do they just give phony ones probably knowing most won't check and just take it on face value?

 

[bluegrassarms]

There's valid argument in both directions, but ultimately it's not anyone's right to behave as they please on someone else's private property -- regardless of whether or not that behavior has some constitutional coverage.

Can I conduct a gun control rally on your front porch?

Oh, you can have your anti-gun rally on my porch, but it'll be a really short rally.

I agree with you , which is why I'm torn, but you run into some odd conflicts like this one, at least for me. I wouldn't carry on an individual's private property if they didn't want, but we've so retracted the definition of private property for businesses I don't know if it's quite the same. In this case I'm carrying to protect myself and given that most businesses don't have massive security (nor should they) I'm conflicted about whether the 2nd amendment supersedes property rights for businesses, just as we have superseded them for issues like discrimination.

Kentucky has made my decision for me by saying my carry rights trump their property rights (sans the trespass issue), but IMO there is one good reason why the 2nd Amendment should trump business property rights: their posting of a sign can create an externality that forces me to not carry even outside their business.

For example where I live I walk to a number of stores and restaurants. If I can't carry in them then I won't be able to carry as I walk to and from them either b/c I don't have a place to put my gun. So in effect they have now infringed on my rights outside their property, though unintentionally. For me if I don't carry and ignore such a sign (fortunately in kentucky they're few and far between) I'd be not carrying at times when I want to carry most.

Most discussions I see focus on leaving it in the car but I don't take a car to these places, and even between the car and their business I am restricted by their private property rights even if not on their property. There was a discussion about carry on college campuses and I think it's the same problem. By not being able to carry on school property you prevent students from carrying as they walk to and from that property, sometimes in some not very safe areas.

Then to me it's just whether we want to extend the 2nd Amendment over property rights or extend property rights over the 2nd Amendment, and on average I'd rather do the latter.

Either way I find it a very tough call, and respect anyone on either side of the question. Heck I'm not 100% sure which side I'm on. This is one of those gray areas where no one is trying to take away rights as much as balance them.

 

[MP22]

I sometimes do, sometimes don't depending more on location, type of business/event and time of day. Your policy is a good one, esp. just not giving them your business, and I try to avoid them as well but I don't pay any attention to them if I have to go in.

I'm a Ky instructor and the most interesting discussions we have in class outside just the gun part is where you can and can't carry and how people respond to businesses posting the signs. It's not a crime to ignore the sign, all they can do is ask you to leave and if you refuse then it's trespass, but of course it's highly unlikely they'll ask since they won't know. It still leaves the question though of whether to observe it or not. Opinions vary wildly between people in the classes.

I'm no lawyer and I'm just speaking as me, not an instructor, but personally I liken it to the "no shoes, no shirt, no service" sign. You can walk in without a shirt on (and if you're Erin Andrews I even encourage it). That in and of itself isn't a crime. They can then either serve you and ignore their policy, which is fine, or they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave that's now a crime, trespass, and they can call the police. You can also choose whether to respect their policies and what they want in their business or you can ignore them and try to get by anyway.

Of course there are few such places in Kentucky. Not sure how I'd handle being under the rules some of our brethren on here endure who live in far less friendly confines.


Back to the OP -- As has been said it varies by state. I highly recommend a good class, esp on the law. Ky's is a 6 hour course with 2.5 hours of DVD video on the law. Dry as heck, but lots of important info on the responsibilities of carry. Definitely worth having.

I remember the 2.5 DVD on laws for Kentucky. Dry isn't the word....just lawyers reading to you...but as you said...very informative.

 

[mkk41]

God don't make no more land and this here parcel is MINE!

I respect and support the rights of private property owners to set the rules for their piece of earth. If a business open to the public says NO GUNS ALLOWED in their establishment , I'll simply go elsewhere.

Your hunting license doesn't give you the right to hunt on private property that's posted NO HUNTING , does it?

 

[paud]

Kentucky State Police: Concealed Deadly Weapons
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf

 

[davegarage]

When In Idaho

Idaho is very gun friendly.
Concealed carry is legal everywhere except the usual places, Fed Offices and Courts, County Offices and courts, City offices, and the airports. Schools, University's and Colleges are also no-no's. (Working on a law to let dorm residents have concealed in their dorm)
Most concerts and large organized gatherings through a funnel (search) are no-no's.
Many carry guns in rifle racks in the back windows of pick-up trucks. Not an issue unless you try to drive onto an airbase, or other sensitive government property. Open carry is legal all over, except the stated exceptions noted above.
I have yet to see a No gun sign at any retail establishment here. Of course, walking into a bank with an open carry would be cause for alarm, but concealed and left that way is not an issue here. Common sense.
If there is a metal detector and a search, then don't conceal and carry. If your going to the bar, don't open carry.

One other fun little rule here, if you are intoxicated and are with concealed carry, that is a misdemeanor crime. You will also lose your right to conceal.

Good topic.

 

[chud333]

NO, you are responsible for protecting yourself/family. You are also responsible for living with knowingly violating a statute and the consequences. Such is the nature of a Democracy and being a man.

This +1
Well put sir. Some squarehead puts up a sign that says
he has decided to repeal my Constitutional Right to
defend myself and family ???? Don't think so.....
Legal or not you have your own choice to make.
To Each His Own.
500 dollar fine for trespass if caught ????
All righty then. At least i'll be alive to pay it if SHTF.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 any day.
If i see these signs they lose my business regardless
so to me it's a moot point.

Chuck

 

[Hapworth]

Oh, you can have your anti-gun rally on my porch, but it'll be a really short rally.

I agree with you , which is why I'm torn, but you run into some odd conflicts like this one, at least for me....

With apologies, your post in its entirety reflects an excellent degree of reason and even-handedness -- not to mention humor -- in regards to a complex issue; you are, in short, in the wrong subforum and must leave immediately.

 

[Hapworth]

One other fun little rule here, if you are intoxicated and are with concealed carry, that is a misdemeanor crime. You will also lose your right to conceal.

We have that out this way, too -- misdemeanor offense if you concealed carry into any establishment that serves alcohol and you imbibe.

Perfectly fair, I say -- guns and booze, especially in public gathering places, don't mix.

 

[nipster]

This +1
Well put sir. Some squarehead puts up a sign that says
he has decided to repeal my Constitutional Right to
defend myself and family ???? Don't think so.....
Legal or not you have your own choice to make.
To Each His Own.
500 dollar fine for trespass if caught ????
All righty then. At least i'll be alive to pay it if SHTF.

Depending on the state you live in, you would also lose your gun rights, have a criminal record, possibly lose your job and the ability to provide for your family, etc.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 any day.
If i see these signs they lose my business regardless
so to me it's a moot point.

While I agree, typically going out to dinner or to a bar does not end in gunfire. When I am going to get loaded, the gun stays in the car, sometimes at home. Bad things happen when guns and alcohol mix. It's best to just avoid those anti-gun establishments, but bars are pretty much universally off limits.

 

[Poodle Soup]

I no hablo

 

[chud333]

Depending on the state you live in, you would also lose your gun rights, have a criminal record, possibly lose your job and the ability to provide for your family, etc.



While I agree, typically going out to dinner or to a bar does not end in gunfire. When I am going to get loaded, the gun stays in the car, sometimes at home. Bad things happen when guns and alcohol mix. It's best to just avoid those anti-gun establishments, but bars are pretty much universally off limits.

AGAIN, you're missing the point.
I am ALIVE....Not being grieved by my family and
friends. My right to future carry, my job,
is not even considered.

Dry Cleaners, Banks, Shoe Stores, etc.,
and any other business who decide to post these
signs will never get a nickel of my money. I won't
patronize these businesses.
Also i'd venture to say that Bars are probably not
the least likely place to confront a drunken idiot
with a gun starting trouble. The people who went to
the midnite viewing of "Batman" probably did'nt think
they we're in danger that night either..........

Chuck

 

[Martya]

For example where I live I walk to a number of stores and restaurants. If I can't carry in them then I won't be able to carry as I walk to and from them either b/c I don't have a place to put my gun. So in effect they have now infringed on my rights outside their property, though unintentionally.

As bluegrassarms mentions, if you don't have a place to leave your gun you have to leave it home.

My wife teaches high school. A few times per year she asks that I take her and pick her up after school. 18 miles to school, and I have to leave the gun home. A couple of times over the past few years I was 30 miles away in the other direction. I had to drive right past the school to the house to drop off the gun and then backtrack to get her.

I went to the nanny state of NJ to a wedding. 312 miles one way, 12 miles of the trip was in NJ, so for that little 12 mile part of my trip I had to leave my gun home in PA.

As far as I am concerned, these are established laws that are violating my 2A rights.

As to the signs, LenS said "Criminals don't obey any signs!" so if you ignore the signs where they carry the weight of law what does that make you? And as far as not doing business in those establishments, I agree, but what do you do if your boss invites you and your wife to dinner in one of those establishments? You know you will go and you will leave your firearm home or in your car.

I am not advocating ignoring the weight of law signs. What we need to do is to write our reps and tell them how we feel. There will always be crazies, somewhere, and they don't issue an itinerary. We need to write to those local businesses that falsely imply their establishment is a safe area but do nothing to actually make it safe; tell them you are not doing business there and you are telling all your friends the same thing and why.

(I live in PA - no "weight of law" signs here.)

 

[nipster]

As far as I am concerned, these are established laws that are violating my 2A rights.

The constitution prevents the GOVERNMENT from infringing on your rights, not private individuals.

You have no second amendment (or any other constitutional rights) rights on private property

If I lived in a state where these signs were binding, I wouldn't patronize them either

 

[CigarGuy]

I'm not sure why 2A advocates would give any business that "bans" guns your dollars but, hey, it's America, right?
First time, I usually crack the door and yell in that I was going to come in and buy something but since there is a no gun sign, I can't come in and won't be back.
I know it's meaningless, but makes ME feel better!

 

[Martya]

The constitution prevents the GOVERNMENT from infringing on your rights, not private individuals.

Er, did I imply otherwise in my post?

 

[Sebago Son]

Only a Sign from Heaven. Afterall, Self Defense is a God-given right.

Caeser's Law may disgree and in that case I do not patronize or occupy that space.