.357 No good in snubbies? apparently all handgun rounds the same?

[leviathon]

I was reading on the forums and ran across some info that the 357mag is no good out of a snubbie. Apparently the 357 needs at least a 4 inch barrel to gain its velocity that makes it such a lethal round.

Was wondering if this is true, and if it also applies to the 44mag?

Also, was told by a guy recently that most handgun calibers are equally effective, and most modern 9mm is the exact same ballistically as 45acp or 40...I was alays under the impression that 45 had much more ft/lbs than 9mm and 40?

Looked on wikipedia, apparently they have some 9mm rounds at 550ft/lbs? (200 more than 44 special and 45acp?)

 

[snowman]

Sir,

I'll offer my lowly opinion on your first question. I have 4 .357s: a 2-1/4", two 4", and an 8-3/8". I shoot the same heavy magnum load out of all of them. I tested the snubnose on a chronograph and, as I recall, the load averaged 1220fps. The same load on the 8-3/8" ran around 1500fps. I haven't chronographed it in the 4" guns; I would expect it to land somewhere in the middle.

So it's relative. I don't know if 1220fps makes the snub "no good" or not; I suspect that that is an extreme view. I rather doubt that another 200fps will make the round that much more effective, but maybe it does. But I pocket carry, so I have to use the snub. And I'm satisfied with the load.

I guess that that doesn't help you much, sir. Pardon me if I've wasted your time.

Regards,
Andy

 

[jlanecole]

Stephen Camp had this to say on your first question, and snowman's observed data follows the same theme:

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As to your second question, while there are certainly differences in ballistics between common handgun rounds, the differences in effectiveness are not all that great, especially when you're talking about modern defensive ammunition. Honestly, though, what exactly constitutes 'handgun effectiveness' is a debate unto itself; obviously, it begins with hitting your target.

A search on '9mm vs. .45' could probably give you plenty to read, some factual, some dogmatic, and some just plain offensive. But remember, when comparing the diameter alone of any cartridge, the differences are really not that great. A 9mm bullet is .356" a .44 magnum is .429" and a .45 ACP is .452". (To get an idea of the extreme range of diameter between these rounds, hold your fingers .096" apart.) So, bullet weight and velocity play major roles here. In fact, bullet velocity has a bigger part in the KE equation, since it gets squared. That's why the 9mm moving faster may have a greater amount of energy than the .45.

Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.

 

[mc5aw]

Wikipedia is not a trustworthy source of information on any topic. It is entirely opinion based and edited as such.

 

[venomballistics]

well 200 FPS has a bit more clout than many seem to realize. Energy is a function of mass times the square of velocity. meaning small relative changes in velocity equate larger jumps in energy.
Be that as it may, 38 special uses the same projectiles and can offer between 700 and 900 FPS .. meanwhile the magnum counterpart as measured by snowman of 1220 still makes a dramatic improvement over even +p 38's ... the claim of "no good" is clearly bunk

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

well 200 FPS has a bit more clout than many seem to realize. Energy is a function of mass times the square of velocity. meaning small relative changes in velocity equate larger jumps in energy.
Be that as it may, 38 special uses the same projectiles and can offer between 700 and 900 FPS .. meanwhile the magnum counterpart as measured by snowman of 1220 still makes a dramatic improvement over even +p 38's ... the claim of "no good" is clearly bunk

But it is kinda like the difference between getting hit the face with a shovel swung by your 10 year old vs one being swung by your wife-they're both gonna mess up your day pretty good!

 

[venomballistics]

But it is kinda like the difference between getting hit the face with a shovel swung by your 10 year old vs one being swung by your wife-they're both gonna mess up your day pretty good!

true .. neither would be at all pleasant. However you as a lawyer should know better than any of us that the wife has far more knowledge about hiding the body

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

true .. neither would be at all pleasant. However you as a lawyer should know better than any of us that the wife has far more knowledge about hiding the body

Not only that-she has her own shovel

 

[66Park]

Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.

This is exceptionally good advice. A .357 is still going to be an effective round out of a 2.5 inch barrel. What you are going to have to deal with, though, is much more muzzle flash, noise, and difficulty with follow up shots. To me, that's not worth the difference in effectiveness compared to a .38 Special or +P.

 

[Lt JL]

And don't forget, at short range, with a hot .357 magnum load in a snubbie, you also set the bad guy on fire.

 

[tops]

My guns shoot close to snowmans fps. I use 15 grs. 2400 and a 158 SWC. 2 1/2 in. 1246 fps., 4 in. 1306 fps., 6 in. 1429 fps. Effective is relative so a 2 1/2 in. gun may not be effective but I bet it will leave a mark. Larry

 

[Packard]

There is magic threshold at about 1000 feet per second above which a bullet will expand and below which it won't. Many (most) 38s will not expand out of a snubie. Most 357s will.

 

[baccusboy]

If you have time to spray the bad guy with lighter fluid before you shoot, then the .357 snub is certainly the way to go.

Otherwise, you've got excessive noise, muzzle flash, and degraded follow-up shots over a hot .38 Special.

I agree that a .357 out of a snubbie is not worth the return. Yes, it will certainly work, but there are better choices. You can get a Ruger LC9 in 9mm and end up with a lighter gun that carries more rounds, enjoys similar ballistics, and recoils less. Not to mention, it's less blinding, quieter, and follow-up shots will be faster.

The 9mm will also trump the .357 in expansion every time, provided the bullets expand properly.

 

[clubleaf206]

And don't forget, at short range, with a hot .357 magnum load in a snubbie, you also set the bad guy on fire.

Particularly if you use handloads made with W 296.

 

[Packard]

If you have time to spray the bad guy with lighter fluid before you shoot, then the .357 snub is certainly the way to go.

Otherwise, you've got excessive noise, muzzle flash, and degraded follow-up shots over a hot .38 Special.

I agree that a .357 out of a snubbie is not worth the return. Yes, it will certainly work, but there are better choices. You can get a Ruger LC9 in 9mm and end up with a lighter gun that carries more rounds, enjoys similar ballistics, and recoils less. Not to mention, it's less blinding, quieter, and follow-up shots will be faster.

The 9mm will also trump the .357 in expansion every time, provided the bullets expand properly.

The Federal 125 gr. .357 is the all time man-stopper champ. Nothing beats it, including the .44 magnum.

The 9mm is a flawed round. Mostly because people convince themselves it is a man-stopper. The .380 does not suffer that fault because people understand it is not a man stopper--at least not in the same catagory as a .357, .40, or a .38 super, etc.

Even a .22 will stop a man eventually. But you want to stop him before he does damage to you or your family, so you need a round that will stop a man in his tracks.

The revolver is more reliable than any auto, and vastly more reliable than a compact auto. (Autos don't shrink in size gracefully.) The smaller a auto gets, the more difficult it is to make it reliable. Barrel angles get more accute, feeding gets more difficult, and the slides get lighter.

A small auto will never be as reliable as a revolver, and an under-maintained auto will be vastly less reliable than an under-maintained revolver.

I carry a 640Pro with Federal's 125 gr. 357s in all chambers.

I also carry a 340PD. With that gun I carry only plus-P in the first four chambers and a .357 in the last chamber. I agree that the recoil is abusive in the very light gun and follow up shots are affected. That is why I only use the .357 in the last chamber where a quick follow up is not expected.

 

[Old cop]

Interesting thread but for me Mr. Campbell said it all. Opinions about the best man stopper are all over the place. I stick w/what worked for me when I was on the job, the old FBI +P. The bottom line is that most any modern +P will do the job with good placement.

 

[1morethan8]

"...you've got excessive noise, muzzle flash, and degraded follow-up shots over a hot .38 Special."
You forgot recoil hurting your hand!

 

[David LaPell]

I know when I started tinkering with some of the hotter .357 loads for my 3 1/2 inch Model 27 (not exactly a snubbie in the true sense) it was coming out of the barrel at around 1,300 fps or so. This was my 125 grain XTP with 16.5 grains of 2400. It might not set the bad guy on fire but it sounds like a piece of field artillery going off. I would imagine if at 1,300 fps out of a 3 1/2 inch barrel, it would still be doing well over 1,000 from a 2-inch barrel and that is nothing to sneeze at compared to a hot .38 Special. However while it is pretty mild in recoil with that big 27, I bet in a j-frame it would be loud and just a bit snappy. However if you can handle the recoil and the noise than I don't see any reason why the .357 in a snubbie would not work out.
I would say don't listen to all the hype of "this one does this" and "this one does that" my motto has always been shoot what you are comfortable shooting. There is an old saying that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44. If you shoot a .38 Special better than a .357 then by all means stick with the one you are better and more consistent with. Bill Jordan once said that "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."

 

[1morethan8]

"The Federal 125 gr. .357 is the all time man-stopper champ. Nothing beats it, including the .44 magnum."

Are you saying that the Federal 125 gr. .357 has stopped more men than a .44 magnum... or is better at stopping a man than a .44 magnum?

 

[wheelgun28]

357, phhhff everyone knows you need a 9mm to stop someone, or was it a 45.....