.357 No good in snubbies? apparently all handgun rounds the same?

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leviathon

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I was reading on the forums and ran across some info that the 357mag is no good out of a snubbie. Apparently the 357 needs at least a 4 inch barrel to gain its velocity that makes it such a lethal round.

Was wondering if this is true, and if it also applies to the 44mag?

Also, was told by a guy recently that most handgun calibers are equally effective, and most modern 9mm is the exact same ballistically as 45acp or 40...I was alays under the impression that 45 had much more ft/lbs than 9mm and 40?

Looked on wikipedia, apparently they have some 9mm rounds at 550ft/lbs? (200 more than 44 special and 45acp?)
 
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Sir,

I'll offer my lowly opinion on your first question. I have 4 .357s: a 2-1/4", two 4", and an 8-3/8". I shoot the same heavy magnum load out of all of them. I tested the snubnose on a chronograph and, as I recall, the load averaged 1220fps. The same load on the 8-3/8" ran around 1500fps. I haven't chronographed it in the 4" guns; I would expect it to land somewhere in the middle.

So it's relative. I don't know if 1220fps makes the snub "no good" or not; I suspect that that is an extreme view. I rather doubt that another 200fps will make the round that much more effective, but maybe it does. But I pocket carry, so I have to use the snub. And I'm satisfied with the load.

I guess that that doesn't help you much, sir. Pardon me if I've wasted your time.

Regards,
Andy
 
Stephen Camp had this to say on your first question, and snowman's observed data follows the same theme:

New Page 1

As to your second question, while there are certainly differences in ballistics between common handgun rounds, the differences in effectiveness are not all that great, especially when you're talking about modern defensive ammunition. Honestly, though, what exactly constitutes 'handgun effectiveness' is a debate unto itself; obviously, it begins with hitting your target.

A search on '9mm vs. .45' could probably give you plenty to read, some factual, some dogmatic, and some just plain offensive. But remember, when comparing the diameter alone of any cartridge, the differences are really not that great. A 9mm bullet is .356" a .44 magnum is .429" and a .45 ACP is .452". (To get an idea of the extreme range of diameter between these rounds, hold your fingers .096" apart.) So, bullet weight and velocity play major roles here. In fact, bullet velocity has a bigger part in the KE equation, since it gets squared. That's why the 9mm moving faster may have a greater amount of energy than the .45.

Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.
 
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well 200 FPS has a bit more clout than many seem to realize. Energy is a function of mass times the square of velocity. meaning small relative changes in velocity equate larger jumps in energy.
Be that as it may, 38 special uses the same projectiles and can offer between 700 and 900 FPS .. meanwhile the magnum counterpart as measured by snowman of 1220 still makes a dramatic improvement over even +p 38's ... the claim of "no good" is clearly bunk
 
venomballistics said:
well 200 FPS has a bit more clout than many seem to realize. Energy is a function of mass times the square of velocity. meaning small relative changes in velocity equate larger jumps in energy.
Be that as it may, 38 special uses the same projectiles and can offer between 700 and 900 FPS .. meanwhile the magnum counterpart as measured by snowman of 1220 still makes a dramatic improvement over even +p 38's ... the claim of "no good" is clearly bunk
Click to expand...


But it is kinda like the difference between getting hit the face with a shovel swung by your 10 year old vs one being swung by your wife-they're both gonna mess up your day pretty good!
 
CAJUNLAWYER said:
But it is kinda like the difference between getting hit the face with a shovel swung by your 10 year old vs one being swung by your wife-they're both gonna mess up your day pretty good!
Click to expand...

true .. neither would be at all pleasant. However you as a lawyer should know better than any of us that the wife has far more knowledge about hiding the body:D
 
jlanecole said:
Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.
Click to expand...
This is exceptionally good advice. A .357 is still going to be an effective round out of a 2.5 inch barrel. What you are going to have to deal with, though, is much more muzzle flash, noise, and difficulty with follow up shots. To me, that's not worth the difference in effectiveness compared to a .38 Special or +P.
 
My guns shoot close to snowmans fps. I use 15 grs. 2400 and a 158 SWC. 2 1/2 in. 1246 fps., 4 in. 1306 fps., 6 in. 1429 fps. Effective is relative so a 2 1/2 in. gun may not be effective but I bet it will leave a mark. Larry
 
If you have time to spray the bad guy with lighter fluid before you shoot, then the .357 snub is certainly the way to go.

Otherwise, you've got excessive noise, muzzle flash, and degraded follow-up shots over a hot .38 Special.

I agree that a .357 out of a snubbie is not worth the return. Yes, it will certainly work, but there are better choices. You can get a Ruger LC9 in 9mm and end up with a lighter gun that carries more rounds, enjoys similar ballistics, and recoils less. Not to mention, it's less blinding, quieter, and follow-up shots will be faster.

The 9mm will also trump the .357 in expansion every time, provided the bullets expand properly.
 
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baccusboy said:
If you have time to spray the bad guy with lighter fluid before you shoot, then the .357 snub is certainly the way to go.

Otherwise, you've got excessive noise, muzzle flash, and degraded follow-up shots over a hot .38 Special.

I agree that a .357 out of a snubbie is not worth the return. Yes, it will certainly work, but there are better choices. You can get a Ruger LC9 in 9mm and end up with a lighter gun that carries more rounds, enjoys similar ballistics, and recoils less. Not to mention, it's less blinding, quieter, and follow-up shots will be faster.

The 9mm will also trump the .357 in expansion every time, provided the bullets expand properly.
Click to expand...

The Federal 125 gr. .357 is the all time man-stopper champ. Nothing beats it, including the .44 magnum.

The 9mm is a flawed round. Mostly because people convince themselves it is a man-stopper. The .380 does not suffer that fault because people understand it is not a man stopper--at least not in the same catagory as a .357, .40, or a .38 super, etc.

Even a .22 will stop a man eventually. But you want to stop him before he does damage to you or your family, so you need a round that will stop a man in his tracks.

The revolver is more reliable than any auto, and vastly more reliable than a compact auto. (Autos don't shrink in size gracefully.) The smaller a auto gets, the more difficult it is to make it reliable. Barrel angles get more accute, feeding gets more difficult, and the slides get lighter.

A small auto will never be as reliable as a revolver, and an under-maintained auto will be vastly less reliable than an under-maintained revolver.

I carry a 640Pro with Federal's 125 gr. 357s in all chambers.

I also carry a 340PD. With that gun I carry only plus-P in the first four chambers and a .357 in the last chamber. I agree that the recoil is abusive in the very light gun and follow up shots are affected. That is why I only use the .357 in the last chamber where a quick follow up is not expected.
 
Interesting thread but for me Mr. Campbell said it all. Opinions about the best man stopper are all over the place. I stick w/what worked for me when I was on the job, the old FBI +P. The bottom line is that most any modern +P will do the job with good placement.
 
I know when I started tinkering with some of the hotter .357 loads for my 3 1/2 inch Model 27 (not exactly a snubbie in the true sense) it was coming out of the barrel at around 1,300 fps or so. This was my 125 grain XTP with 16.5 grains of 2400. It might not set the bad guy on fire but it sounds like a piece of field artillery going off. I would imagine if at 1,300 fps out of a 3 1/2 inch barrel, it would still be doing well over 1,000 from a 2-inch barrel and that is nothing to sneeze at compared to a hot .38 Special. However while it is pretty mild in recoil with that big 27, I bet in a j-frame it would be loud and just a bit snappy. However if you can handle the recoil and the noise than I don't see any reason why the .357 in a snubbie would not work out.
I would say don't listen to all the hype of "this one does this" and "this one does that" my motto has always been shoot what you are comfortable shooting. There is an old saying that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44. If you shoot a .38 Special better than a .357 then by all means stick with the one you are better and more consistent with. Bill Jordan once said that "Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
 
"The Federal 125 gr. .357 is the all time man-stopper champ. Nothing beats it, including the .44 magnum."

Are you saying that the Federal 125 gr. .357 has stopped more men than a .44 magnum... or is better at stopping a man than a .44 magnum?
 
Hi, New to the list and a retired LEO myself. I have a s@w UDR (that old bloodwork relick as my son calls it!:-) and carry fed. 158gr hydrashoks. It has pretty impressive effects out of my snubbie...you can see Gel test on it (for what they are worth on youtube) more then enough expansion and penetration and meets or excedes any plus P i;ve ried out of her.

regards
 
Wow....So many good responses here and info, and funny. THis is why this forum is so great.

After reading the cronographed results of the 357mag in a snubbie, I think im comfortable with that, and will join the 357mag snubbie camp soon...

But...to clear 2 things up (im hard-headed):

THe modern 9mm +P now officially has a better knock down effect than a 45acp?

And lastly, I just bought a 44 special (S&W of course, thanks to a forum member!)
and was wondering about the expansion and knockdown power of the 44 special out of a 3 inch barrel?
 
Packard said:
The 9mm is a flawed round. Mostly because people convince themselves it is a man-stopper. The .380 does not suffer that fault because people understand it is not a man stopper--at least not in the same catagory as a .357, .40, or a .38 super, etc.
Click to expand...

Unless you have majic bullets that hit the brain stem every time, no handgun round is a man stopper regardless of caliber, ANYONE is kidding themself if they think otherwise. According to the FBI you can function for 10-15 seconds after your heart has completely stopped. How many rounds can the bad guy squeeze off after you've shot him in the chest?

Your opinion about the 9mm is your opinion, ballistics data says otherwise. Is 9mm better than .357 magnum? The data says no, but that doesnt make it a flawed round, or flawed any more than any other handgun round.
 
Re .357 muzzle flash, noise: In a lot of cases I want those things. If you shoot in an enclosed space in the dark you're going to be blind and deaf with a 380 or bigger. But I carry a lot out of the house and in an open encounter (or even in a store) IMO the mental aspect is as important as shot placement. I want the bad guy to think he's being shot at by a gun that can kill him.

So that's not all bad. It's a tradeoff, like anything else. Muzzle flash and noise can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the circumstance, there is no perfect round or gun or anything else.

Re recoil, I can put 5 rounds in or real near the center mass on a B-21 silhouette in 3 seconds with smaller calibers without much trouble, do it in an extra second or 2 with a .357. Not a lot of difference to me. Yeah I feel the difference later, wouldn't want to shoot 100 rounds with it, but 5-6 is no issue. In a real situation I figure the bowling pin in that target is about as good as it'll get and I can do that fine with a 357.

Could not agree more with those who say it's far more important to shoot what you can shoot well than to pick a round or gun based on the numbers. I gave a lady I work with a Mod 36 square butt with rubber grips shooting .38s b/c she can handle that gun/round effectively and it doesn't scare her to shoot it. She's not anticipating recoil or worrying about it jumping out of her hands. She's confident with it, and in the end that matters most.

So I got her the most powerful/most reliable caliber/gun combination with which she was comfortable and confident, and that's what you need to do. Go to a range and rent guns in the various calibers if you don't have them already or can borrow them, find what works for you and use it.

Last, IMO there's no real answer to the question. As soon as you get past the raw data you will get 12 opinions for every 10 people you ask, including qualified experts.

That's b/c when talking about shooting at people you introduce variables about shot placement, the person being shot, etc. Then you get into the marketing issues and even measuring things like expansion of the rounds, the distance you may be at to the attacker, and about 50 other things. I think 45 > 9mm but lots of people disagree.

IMO that's why you simplify and focus on what you like and can shoot comfortably with confidence. If possible get into the 9mm/45/357/38+P class if possible and then it's up to what you like. That has more to do with which gun you like than which caliber anyway.
 
Personally I think there are a lot of factors to consider is the gun going to be carried or just home defense? If carried size is going to be a factor. Carrying a smaller caliber is better then carrying nothing at all. While I have my own preferences that doesn't mean they'd apply to everyone. That being said one should carry the most potent cartridge one can comfortably control and that also means putting in the range time as well.
As to firing in doors, pretty much any gun is going to be loud and yeah it hurts your ears but that doesn't mean your going Deaf...otherwise it would be a hell of a lot easier to find those dudes shooting in the hallways of the housing projects! :-)
 
my stance encompasses the probable mindset of an attacker who needs to be shot. If we need to draw, and fire, it is due to the UNREASONABLE and IRRATIONAL actions of the attacker.
what made him or her so unreasonable and irrational? Drugs? mental state? just plain evil? ... would a hit from a lesser round register the same as it might against someone sipping coffee in a restaurant?
I have fired many calibers into many things and have seen what they each do. 9 never showed me anything to make me believe in it, 38 acts similarly but seems to penetrate a little better for its heavier bullet. 357, 41 and 44 magnums are quite destructive 40 on the hot side like 400 corbon and 10MM seem to deliver a magnum like capacity for destruction .. 45 duplicates the 44 magnum midrange loads I deemed conflict worthy.
yes, a lesser gun is better than no gun when you need one .. it will let the cops eventually find the perp that killed you, which beats the jack wagon getting away with it entirely. I made mine a 45 in the interest of making it home. I'd qualify the 400 10mm and 40 as well for autos
for the wheelguns ... you dont have an autos capacity nor ease of reload under pressure and or wounded .. revolvers are platforms for power ... take advantage of this if you can. If you can handle it, make it a magnum.
 
BS---- Don't believe everything read on the Internet.
Yes, even here.....
I shoot something with a .357 out of a 1" smoothbore
and it's gonna ruin its day.

Chuck
 
Packard said:
There is magic threshold at about 1000 feet per second above which a bullet will expand and below which it won't. Many (most) 38s will not expand out of a snubie. Most 357s will.
Click to expand...

Most 38s will not expand out of a snubby? Since when? I'm willing to bet that there are several bullet engineers that would have a problem with that statement.
 
jlanecole said:
Stephen Camp had this to say on your first question, and snowman's observed data follows the same theme:

New Page 1

As to your second question, while there are certainly differences in ballistics between common handgun rounds, the differences in effectiveness are not all that great, especially when you're talking about modern defensive ammunition. Honestly, though, what exactly constitutes 'handgun effectiveness' is a debate unto itself; obviously, it begins with hitting your target.

A search on '9mm vs. .45' could probably give you plenty to read, some factual, some dogmatic, and some just plain offensive. But remember, when comparing the diameter alone of any cartridge, the differences are really not that great. A 9mm bullet is .356" a .44 magnum is .429" and a .45 ACP is .452". (To get an idea of the extreme range of diameter between these rounds, hold your fingers .096" apart.) So, bullet weight and velocity play major roles here. In fact, bullet velocity has a bigger part in the KE equation, since it gets squared. That's why the 9mm moving faster may have a greater amount of energy than the .45.

Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.
Click to expand...

Not to disagree but shouldn't a caliber size difference be more accurately compared not by diameter of the bullet but by the the frontal area of the bullet. It seems the frontal area causes the actual displacement of tissue. It's been 55 yrs since High School geometry but if I am figuring correctly the 9mm/.357 bullet area is approx 1 inch and the 45 is 1.6 inches. that's 60% larger. Please help me if I am wrong.Thanks, it won't be the first time my thinking is incorrect.
My comparison assumed equal velocity and did not take into account the KE resulting from velocity difference. Not practical I know but I needed a place to ask my " frontal area" comparison. sorry for hijacking.
 
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