.357 No good in snubbies? apparently all handgun rounds the same?

[Fourkeeps]

Hi, New to the list and a retired LEO myself. I have a s@w UDR (that old bloodwork relick as my son calls it! and carry fed. 158gr hydrashoks. It has pretty impressive effects out of my snubbie...you can see Gel test on it (for what they are worth on youtube) more then enough expansion and penetration and meets or excedes any plus P i;ve ried out of her.

regards

 

[leviathon]

Wow....So many good responses here and info, and funny. THis is why this forum is so great.

After reading the cronographed results of the 357mag in a snubbie, I think im comfortable with that, and will join the 357mag snubbie camp soon...

But...to clear 2 things up (im hard-headed):

THe modern 9mm +P now officially has a better knock down effect than a 45acp?

And lastly, I just bought a 44 special (S&W of course, thanks to a forum member!)
and was wondering about the expansion and knockdown power of the 44 special out of a 3 inch barrel?

 

[1meanZ]

The 9mm is a flawed round. Mostly because people convince themselves it is a man-stopper. The .380 does not suffer that fault because people understand it is not a man stopper--at least not in the same catagory as a .357, .40, or a .38 super, etc.

Unless you have majic bullets that hit the brain stem every time, no handgun round is a man stopper regardless of caliber, ANYONE is kidding themself if they think otherwise. According to the FBI you can function for 10-15 seconds after your heart has completely stopped. How many rounds can the bad guy squeeze off after you've shot him in the chest?

Your opinion about the 9mm is your opinion, ballistics data says otherwise. Is 9mm better than .357 magnum? The data says no, but that doesnt make it a flawed round, or flawed any more than any other handgun round.

 

[bluegrassarms]

But it is kinda like the difference between getting hit the face with a shovel swung by your 10 year old vs one being swung by your wife-they're both gonna mess up your day pretty good!

Yeah, but you figure the 10 year old is an accident. If your wife is doing it she won't stop with one hit.

 

[bluegrassarms]

Re .357 muzzle flash, noise: In a lot of cases I want those things. If you shoot in an enclosed space in the dark you're going to be blind and deaf with a 380 or bigger. But I carry a lot out of the house and in an open encounter (or even in a store) IMO the mental aspect is as important as shot placement. I want the bad guy to think he's being shot at by a gun that can kill him.

So that's not all bad. It's a tradeoff, like anything else. Muzzle flash and noise can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the circumstance, there is no perfect round or gun or anything else.

Re recoil, I can put 5 rounds in or real near the center mass on a B-21 silhouette in 3 seconds with smaller calibers without much trouble, do it in an extra second or 2 with a .357. Not a lot of difference to me. Yeah I feel the difference later, wouldn't want to shoot 100 rounds with it, but 5-6 is no issue. In a real situation I figure the bowling pin in that target is about as good as it'll get and I can do that fine with a 357.

Could not agree more with those who say it's far more important to shoot what you can shoot well than to pick a round or gun based on the numbers. I gave a lady I work with a Mod 36 square butt with rubber grips shooting .38s b/c she can handle that gun/round effectively and it doesn't scare her to shoot it. She's not anticipating recoil or worrying about it jumping out of her hands. She's confident with it, and in the end that matters most.

So I got her the most powerful/most reliable caliber/gun combination with which she was comfortable and confident, and that's what you need to do. Go to a range and rent guns in the various calibers if you don't have them already or can borrow them, find what works for you and use it.

Last, IMO there's no real answer to the question. As soon as you get past the raw data you will get 12 opinions for every 10 people you ask, including qualified experts.

That's b/c when talking about shooting at people you introduce variables about shot placement, the person being shot, etc. Then you get into the marketing issues and even measuring things like expansion of the rounds, the distance you may be at to the attacker, and about 50 other things. I think 45 > 9mm but lots of people disagree.

IMO that's why you simplify and focus on what you like and can shoot comfortably with confidence. If possible get into the 9mm/45/357/38+P class if possible and then it's up to what you like. That has more to do with which gun you like than which caliber anyway.

 

[Fourkeeps]

Personally I think there are a lot of factors to consider is the gun going to be carried or just home defense? If carried size is going to be a factor. Carrying a smaller caliber is better then carrying nothing at all. While I have my own preferences that doesn't mean they'd apply to everyone. That being said one should carry the most potent cartridge one can comfortably control and that also means putting in the range time as well.
As to firing in doors, pretty much any gun is going to be loud and yeah it hurts your ears but that doesn't mean your going Deaf...otherwise it would be a hell of a lot easier to find those dudes shooting in the hallways of the housing projects!

 

[venomballistics]

my stance encompasses the probable mindset of an attacker who needs to be shot. If we need to draw, and fire, it is due to the UNREASONABLE and IRRATIONAL actions of the attacker.
what made him or her so unreasonable and irrational? Drugs? mental state? just plain evil? ... would a hit from a lesser round register the same as it might against someone sipping coffee in a restaurant?
I have fired many calibers into many things and have seen what they each do. 9 never showed me anything to make me believe in it, 38 acts similarly but seems to penetrate a little better for its heavier bullet. 357, 41 and 44 magnums are quite destructive 40 on the hot side like 400 corbon and 10MM seem to deliver a magnum like capacity for destruction .. 45 duplicates the 44 magnum midrange loads I deemed conflict worthy.
yes, a lesser gun is better than no gun when you need one .. it will let the cops eventually find the perp that killed you, which beats the jack wagon getting away with it entirely. I made mine a 45 in the interest of making it home. I'd qualify the 400 10mm and 40 as well for autos
for the wheelguns ... you dont have an autos capacity nor ease of reload under pressure and or wounded .. revolvers are platforms for power ... take advantage of this if you can. If you can handle it, make it a magnum.

 

[chud333]

BS---- Don't believe everything read on the Internet.
Yes, even here.....
I shoot something with a .357 out of a 1" smoothbore
and it's gonna ruin its day.

Chuck

 

[Kanewpadle]

There is magic threshold at about 1000 feet per second above which a bullet will expand and below which it won't. Many (most) 38s will not expand out of a snubie. Most 357s will.

Most 38s will not expand out of a snubby? Since when? I'm willing to bet that there are several bullet engineers that would have a problem with that statement.

 

[nickn10]

Stephen Camp had this to say on your first question, and snowman's observed data follows the same theme:

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As to your second question, while there are certainly differences in ballistics between common handgun rounds, the differences in effectiveness are not all that great, especially when you're talking about modern defensive ammunition. Honestly, though, what exactly constitutes 'handgun effectiveness' is a debate unto itself; obviously, it begins with hitting your target.

A search on '9mm vs. .45' could probably give you plenty to read, some factual, some dogmatic, and some just plain offensive. But remember, when comparing the diameter alone of any cartridge, the differences are really not that great. A 9mm bullet is .356" a .44 magnum is .429" and a .45 ACP is .452". (To get an idea of the extreme range of diameter between these rounds, hold your fingers .096" apart.) So, bullet weight and velocity play major roles here. In fact, bullet velocity has a bigger part in the KE equation, since it gets squared. That's why the 9mm moving faster may have a greater amount of energy than the .45.

Practical upshot in my mind? Shoot what you are accurate with, practice lots, and don't get caught up in caliber wars.

Not to disagree but shouldn't a caliber size difference be more accurately compared not by diameter of the bullet but by the the frontal area of the bullet. It seems the frontal area causes the actual displacement of tissue. It's been 55 yrs since High School geometry but if I am figuring correctly the 9mm/.357 bullet area is approx 1 inch and the 45 is 1.6 inches. that's 60% larger. Please help me if I am wrong.Thanks, it won't be the first time my thinking is incorrect.
My comparison assumed equal velocity and did not take into account the KE resulting from velocity difference. Not practical I know but I needed a place to ask my " frontal area" comparison. sorry for hijacking.

 

[leviathon]

I guess I've asked too many questions,

It seems I've asked something that comes down to opinions past the measurements...

What do you all think of the 44 special round for expansion and knonkdown power though?

 

[cshoff]

<--snip-->It seems I've asked something that comes down to opinions past the measurements...<--snip-->

Well, yes, it is a matter of opinion. There is no such thing as a "correct" or "absolute" answer to a question that, by it's very nature, requires a subjective and speculative answer. Someone above said it pretty well - when it comes to handgun rounds, NONE of them are truly ideal. There are so many unforeseeable variables that can come into play in any self-defense shooting, that the debatable differences between the higher-powered handgun calibers (9X19/.38SPL on up), is really a very minor issue in the overall scheme of things.

 

[venomballistics]

I guess I've asked too many questions,

It seems I've asked something that comes down to opinions past the measurements...

What do you all think of the 44 special round for expansion and knonkdown power though?

44 special is a good round .. at least on par with 45 auto.
the fly in its ointment is in the expansion part. Most 44 cal bullets are designed anticipating use in its magnum counterpart thus you might have to search for a bit till you find one that expands with reliability

 

[Darkenfast]

I've pretty much given up on the caliber wars. There is so much BS out there on the internet that you could write a book about the phenomenon. My Browning Hi Power is about the size and weight of a three-inch K-frame. If I look at what common, controllable .357 loads get out of a three-inch barreled Smith, is it worth it for me to sell my BHP (my only firearm), for an S&W? Probably not. Is it worth it for you to sell that short-barreled Model 19 or 13 you've had for a few years and get a 9mm like mine, or a 1911 (cuz everybody says they all fall to hardball, right?)? Probably not.

In my opinion, the late Stephen A. Camp was the best at injecting some common sense into this and a lot of other handgun debates. His articles are still accessible at "Hi-powers and Handguns".

 

[carpriver]

I have read this thread, all the opinions and statements presented as fact and fact presented as fact. The one statement that made the most sense was, carry what you shoot the best and are the most confident with. I think if you are going to carry a gun you need to put in the time and training to become proficient with your weapon of choice. Confidence and proficiency can be a matter of life and death.
Just my opinion, and we all know about opinions and belly buttons.

 

[riverrat38]

Not to disagree but shouldn't a caliber size difference be more accurately compared not by diameter of the bullet but by the the frontal area of the bullet. It seems the frontal area causes the actual displacement of tissue. It's been 55 yrs since High School geometry but if I am figuring correctly the 9mm/.357 bullet area is approx 1 inch and the 45 is 1.6 inches. that's 60% larger. Please help me if I am wrong.Thanks, it won't be the first time my thinking is incorrect.
My comparison assumed equal velocity and did not take into account the KE resulting from velocity difference. Not practical I know but I needed a place to ask my " frontal area" comparison. sorry for hijacking.

I will just address your math. You are off by a factor of ten in both cases. Its 0.10 sq in for the .357 bullet, and 0.16 for the .452 bullet. Its pi r squared. Some folks say that pies are round, but we are talking math here!. You need to divide the diameter by 2, and square it. Then, times 3.14. But, the 45 still has 60% more cross sectional area.
As far as the tissue damage goes, that depends on the bullet profile. When Jim Cirillo, as recounted in his book "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights", talked to Medical Examiners after a shooting, he was told that, with round nose bullets, they could not tell the difference in wound channels between a .32 cal and a .45 cal bullet. This is because the nose of the bullet makes a small hole, and the tissue stretches around the rest of the bullet, and then snaps back. Hollow points with the cavity plugged have been reported to act the same way. That is why Officer Cirillo preferred the wad cutter profile. He even loaded one in the chamber of his partners .45 auto, something he says saved his owned life when his partner shot a perp. during a stake out. I guess I have addressed more than just the math. As far as bullet diameter goes, you do get a slightly greater chance of hitting something vital with a larger bullet. But, it depends on the increase in radius, which, of course, is half the diameter. For a .357 and .452 diameter, the difference in radius is .048 inch.
My own thinking is that the only reason that an accurate shot wouldn't be effective would be if it didn't penetrate deep enough. These are the necessities. Everything else is nice.

Rick

 

[Packard]

Most 38s will not expand out of a snubby? Since when? I'm willing to bet that there are several bullet engineers that would have a problem with that statement.

There are many 38 +P rounds that will expand. And there are some light (and lightly constructed) 38s that will also. My 357 will not shoot those very light rounds and I have little faith in those light rounds.

But if you want 125 gr. or higher you need plus P or .357s in your gun to guarantee expansion.

 

[Fourkeeps]

I can see and agree with the points of many here. Personally I love shooting my 1911 (45acp) my glock 20 (10mm) but frankly I just found them to bulky to carry in some situations. I can get away with my 357 S&W udr (n frame) in my shorts by cramming it into a belly band but it is still rather beefy and pokes you in parts uncomfortable when your sitting in the car driving to the summer BBQ. Now don't get me wrong I know there is the lighter scandium version 327 but frankly I just didn't care for it.
I notice Rick mentions Jim Cirillo which brings to mind a funny story. I was on the job for a couple years and Jim had already retired and gone to share his knowledge and experience with the fed as an instructor for customs (if memory serves). I was at Rodmen's Neck shooting when this fellow walks over and starts giving me pointers on how he could improve my shooting, he was super nice but a little cocky so being a young guy full of piss and vinegar I kind of blew him off. Continuing to shoot like shi& after he walking away. A buddy of mine said Hey don't you know who that was? I said No, who? He said For christ sake that's Jimmy C, he was in more shoot outs then wild Bill hickok, if he's nice enough to give you pointers I'd sure take them! Well needless to say my attitude improved and so did my shooting! After that I and a couple guys stuck to him during that brief visit like an unwanted Wart! I will never forget at one point we were all watching and a particular female officer was shooting, Jim smirked and said you know what she needs? To which one of the guys acting like a wise guy said "Yeah a Canon!" While some of us laughed, he didn't...(at that time standard issue was a model 10 smith 38spc. was perscribed) and although he wasn't really a fan of it (he was definately a big bore guy) he said what you need to do is carry what you can accurately fire, what good would that be to her if she had a 44 magnum but couldn't hit a bulls *** with a frying pan? Anyway he went on a bit and I was fortunate enough to see him again a few years later (again during a visit) but I never forgot the common sense cutting through it all in every thing he offered. My Wife can't control my 10mm, she is relatively accurate and we continue to work on her shooting my 1911 and 357...but frankly she shines with an FN 5.7 , now I know many will scoff but frankly If I was a burgler and that crazy old chick was positioned on the far side of a king sized bed offering minimum profile except an FN 5.7 loaded with a 30 round mag of elite Ammo...I'd settle for the candy dish in the hallway rather then force the door...I'd rather be shot in the foot by a 45.acp then a dozen times in the torso and head with a tiny 5.7..but then again I know the gal!

 

[mbliss57]

I was shooting my 340PD yesterday. I had loaded it with +P and 158 gr Bear Loads randomly in the same cylinder to see how much difference it would make if I was not "anticipating" the pain of the .357 recoil. I didn't know which would go off when I fired. I can say with absolute certainty that the pain from a .357 load is not a figment of my imagination. I have had the 340PD for about a month now and am rethinking the 357 idea. At 1st I was convincing myself that under pressure of having to use .357 rounds in a fight I would not notice. I am much more inclined to believe that I would be ineffective due to the recoil and difficulty in follow up shots. I believe I will use only the +P from now on.

 

[Packard]

I was shooting my 340PD yesterday. I had loaded it with +P and 158 gr Bear Loads randomly in the same cylinder to see how much difference it would make if I was not "anticipating" the pain of the .357 recoil. I didn't know which would go off when I fired. I can say with absolute certainty that the pain from a .357 load is not a figment of my imagination. I have had the 340PD for about a month now and am rethinking the 357 idea. At 1st I was convincing myself that under pressure of having to use .357 rounds in a fight I would not notice. I am much more inclined to believe that I would be ineffective due to the recoil and difficulty in follow up shots. I believe I will use only the +P from now on.

I shoot magnums from my 640 Pro, but I carry four rounds plus P in my 340 PD with the final round being a magnum. Originally I planned on practicing enough to use the magnums full time and I was making progress but I became concerned about permanent nerve damage. So now I only fire a couple of magnum rounds per session.