Gunvault or no?

[Smitty357]

I'm a licensed Locksmith that is also a a member of ALOA. Most people have no clue what ALOA is when in comes to looking for a Lockmsith in their area. For that matter, just research ALOA and u will better understand.

With that said, i deal with many locks both digital and dial on a regular basis. I repair them when broken as im a certified repair tech for many of them in my area. I've had my fair share of dealing with just about any type of safe lock u can possibly throw in front of me.

Without going into detail, yes some locks can be tricked but u have to know exactly how the lock works internally. It's not something Joe Blow on the streets is going to walk into your house and accomplish within 5mins. I can drill some safes in a matter of 6mins (tops) and swing the door open. But keep in mind, this is me knowing the drill points on most of those safes. I've done it so much, its almost second nature. Your normal Joe Blow off the streets will drill the wrong place 10x's before he ever manages to find the right spot. And then he realizes he just fired the Relocker (ok now he's screwed). And thats without the proper equipment. So in his case, it'll take him longer to drill one hole than it does me.

I prefer digital over dial for a few reasons. Its very easy to get into in a hurry when u need it. No need to dial 4x's left, 3x's right and 2x's left then back right until the wheel packs line the gate for the latch. Time is precious when ur life depends on it. The wheel packs also have a tendency to loosen over time from all the dialing it open. Once they get too loose, its literally impossible to line up the wheels for the gate to open.

The MOST problems i ever get out of Digital locks is the damn battery. Yes u would be surprised at how many customers dont know what to do when the keypad beeps 3x's (to remind u the battery is going dead). The battery is always on the outside and takes 10secs to change. 9/10 the safe always opens after u put a good battery in it.

 

[RM38spl]

I'm a licensed Locksmith that is also a a member of ALOA. Most people have no clue what ALOA is when in comes to looking for a Lockmsith in their area. For that matter, just research ALOA and u will better understand.

With that said, i deal with many locks both digital and dial on a regular basis. I repair them when broken as im a certified repair tech for many of them in my area. I've had my fair share of dealing with just about any type of safe lock u can possibly throw in front of me.

Without going into detail, yes some locks can be tricked but u have to know exactly how the lock works internally. It's not something Joe Blow on the streets is going to walk into your house and accomplish within 5mins. I can drill some safes in a matter of 6mins (tops) and swing the door open. But keep in mind, this is me knowing the drill points on most of those safes. I've done it so much, its almost second nature. Your normal Joe Blow off the streets will drill the wrong place 10x's before he ever manages to find the right spot. And then he realizes he just fired the Relocker (ok now he's screwed). And thats without the proper equipment. So in his case, it'll take him longer to drill one hole than it does me.

I prefer digital over dial for a few reasons. Its very easy to get into in a hurry when u need it. No need to dial 4x's left, 3x's right and 2x's left then back right until the wheel packs line the gate for the latch. Time is precious when ur life depends on it. The wheel packs also have a tendency to loosen over time from all the dialing it open. Once they get too loose, its literally impossible to line up the wheels for the gate to open.

The MOST problems i ever get out of Digital locks is the damn battery. Yes u would be surprised at how many customers dont know what to do when the keypad beeps 3x's (to remind u the battery is going dead). The battery is always on the outside and takes 10secs to change. 9/10 the safe always opens after u put a good battery in it.

I am buying a safe with digital lock. I was messing with a floor model and was able to remove lock mechanism as if you were replacing battery. Is there a way a person could open safe after removing lock mechanism, cutting wires or short circuit something?

 

[RussC]

I purchased my Gunvault 500 to keep curious children from accessing my loaded guns. I also wanted a quick means of accessing my guns in the dark.

Yes, you can spend more for a stronger built box but why? If a bad guy wants the content bolting a box to the night stand will result in replacing a broken night stand and missing box.

In my opinion, if you are looking for a safe it better weigh a ton otherwise the bad guy will just take it and crack it in their home.

Russ

 

[Smitty357]

I am buying a safe with digital lock. I was messing with a floor model and was able to remove lock mechanism as if you were replacing battery. Is there a way a person could open safe after removing lock mechanism, cutting wires or short circuit something?

Anything is possible, dont ever let anyone try to convince u other wise. I mean after all, did u see what happened at the election back in November, lol

As for the question.......It's more likely to not happen. Now days the digital locks are nothing like they use to be years back when they first came up on the scene. They are more sophisticated and have more fail safe features. With the way they are incorporating the relockers into digital lock bodies now days, you have a better chance of the relocker firing on you than u have a chance of the safe opening. And this also depends on the type of lock thats on the door. Some of them have a relocker if the safe is bumped or should i say tipped over onto its side it will fire the relocker. In this case, the safe is in lock out mode for 15+ mins (depending on the lock). When the relocker fires it basically cuts the battery power off (internally). So no matter what u do, ur screwed for a certain amount of time..........Most Joe Blows will beat the digital lock off the front of your safe "thinking" it will just come open. In the end, u end up having to buy a new keypad and then ur safe works just like it was brand new.

I have digital locks on my gun safe, as well as both of my vaults under my bed. Keep in mind, i deal with locks on a regular basis. I wouldnt put digital locks on my safes if i "knew" they were problem childs. But as i said before, 9/10 of the problems ive ever seen was that the battery needed replacing.

PS: Also with most digital locks now days. If the wrong code is entered a certain amount of times. The lock automatically goes into lockout mode. Once again, there is nothing u can do until the safe brings itself out of lockout. Most dial safes have no such thing as lockout modes because they arent digital locks.

PSS: Coming from a professional, i'll be honest and tell you that I can take ANY dial safe and break into it faster than i can a digital safe. Dial safes are manually dialed, which means that all i have to do is "manually" break into the safe (i'll keep the info out of this post as to HOW i can do this). Over the years, i've yet to find a digital safe that was easier to break into than a dial safe.......Just my opinion for what its worth.

 

[Titan]

I've been an owner and avid promoter of Gun Vault for about ten years now.

A recent experience leaves my faith shaken.

I replaced the batteries in a 2000 standard, and re-entered my code.

I followed the process exactly and got all of the expected beeps and confirmation that the code had been accepted.

I then opened and closed the safe a couple of times over the next day or two. On the third day, my attempts failed - the code STOPPED WORKING.

I went through the entire process again, with all of the same confirmations, because of my concern over what happened.

The same result, after working day one, this time on the second day, the code FAILED TO WORK.

I can no longer count on THIS Gun Vault and have relegated it to storing ammo.

I now doubt the reliability of every one I own.

I really don't know what to do next, since I like the Fort Knox boxes but the 'simplex type' lock is fairly easy for a determined person with time (a teenager) to defeat the code.

Any wisdom?

 

[Smitty357]

Here is a piece of my wisdom and why i dislike dial safes. Most dial safes have work in the same way shape and form. Although they do differ in some ways, they all are built on the same foundation. This is a car wash safe, one of those safes mounted inside the concrete walls of a car wash. The quarters are stored in these safes each time a person uses the car wash.......Long story short this safe (safe head, door) started acting up over time. Eventually it got to the point where it wouldnt function. So today i had to go break into this safe head in order to remove it from the walls of the car wash. Without going into detail as to "how" i did this. I'll show u some of the outcome after the fact. I didnt need very many tools at all, I just needed to know where to start (in which i do). If you notice, i never drilled a single spot on this safe head. All i did was manually force my way into it, knowing what i needed to do in order to break certain important parts inside the safe. Once those parts broke, i could do whatever I wanted to do with the safe. In this case, the safe head (door if u want to call it that) came right off and I had access to all those quarters. Actually a complete 5 gallon bucket full of quarters, lol...........I did all of this to a safe thats built inside concrete where nothing is accessible except the safe head (door). If this were your average gun safe with a dial lock. It wouldnt have taken me near as long to get into it. Simply because I would have had all the room in the world i needed to do a little work.

PS: The reason this safe started acting up was because the dial wheels were never lubricated. Those wheels sit on top of each other and everyone knows that moving parts that rub should often be lubbed. Its a matter of time before they cause problems. Yep, that was his whole damn problem after all. All he had to do was drop a little lube through the hole on the inside of the safe head and that would have saved him problems........But instead, it came down to all of this.

This is a pic of the drive cam and the crappy metal is made of. Notice i actually bent the drive cam. Its not sitting flush inside the safe head at all.

Close up of the drive cam where the dead bolts sit. This cam is what extracts and retracts the dead bolts. Notice the chewed up places on this cam. Thats because of the dead bolts being driven back into it.

Finally this is the drive bolts. These drive bolts have little nipples that ride in the groves of the drive came. Notice i was able to snap one of those nipples off one of the dead bolts. Its amazing how easy some things break, lol.

 

[RussC]

I've been an owner and avid promoter of Gun Vault for about ten years now.

A recent experience leaves my faith shaken.

I replaced the batteries in a 2000 standard, and re-entered my code.

I followed the process exactly and got all of the expected beeps and confirmation that the code had been accepted.

I then opened and closed the safe a couple of times over the next day or two. On the third day, my attempts failed - the code STOPPED WORKING.

I went through the entire process again, with all of the same confirmations, because of my concern over what happened.

The same result, after working day one, this time on the second day, the code FAILED TO WORK.

I can no longer count on THIS Gun Vault and have relegated it to storing ammo.

I now doubt the reliability of every one I own.

I really don't know what to do next, since I like the Fort Knox boxes but the 'simplex type' lock is fairly easy for a determined person with time (a teenager) to defeat the code.

Any wisdom?

Titan

Everything wears out including digital locks.

If I get 10 years out of my $79 safe I figure that was a good purchase.

Russ

 

[Robotech]

I've been an owner and avid promoter of Gun Vault for about ten years now.

A recent experience leaves my faith shaken.

I replaced the batteries in a 2000 standard, and re-entered my code.

I followed the process exactly and got all of the expected beeps and confirmation that the code had been accepted.

I then opened and closed the safe a couple of times over the next day or two. On the third day, my attempts failed - the code STOPPED WORKING.

I went through the entire process again, with all of the same confirmations, because of my concern over what happened.

The same result, after working day one, this time on the second day, the code FAILED TO WORK.

I can no longer count on THIS Gun Vault and have relegated it to storing ammo.

I now doubt the reliability of every one I own.

I really don't know what to do next, since I like the Fort Knox boxes but the 'simplex type' lock is fairly easy for a determined person with time (a teenager) to defeat the code.

Any wisdom?

My guess would be the batteries. They need to be fresh and of the right "type."

You can't necessarily go by dates on the batteries, and you can't depend on a quick battery check open-circuit voltage reading.

By "type" I mean the battery chemistry type. Do not use ANY kind of rechargeable battery in this type of application. Nor do you want a "Heavy Duty" battery for most circuits like this. Typically you'll want a good quality alkaline battery.

Example: The internal backup batteries in my robots draw a small continuous amount of current when the robot it shut OFF to maintain the position encoder data. (So the robot will know where it is when turned back ON.)

With the correct alkaline batteries, they will last up to three years. When a customer swapped the batteries for brand new "Heavy Duty" batteries, they failed in two weeks... All of them, in about one hundred robots.

The heavy duty batteries can put out a lot of power for a short period of time, but their chemistry doesn't hold up for long with a low continuous drain. This is why most intermittently used electronic devices, or those with a low continuous drain like many smoke detectors, will specify alkaline batteries. I suspect this is what your safe requires.

 

[JNewell]

Yes, I'd try the batteries for sure. I've had one of the smaller GunVaults since 1998 IIRC and it still functions flawlessly (I've got two others that I've purchased since then, same results).

 

[hrw4]

I use iGogreen rechargeable alkaline batteries, they seem to work great in my Barska safe. Actually, they might be eneloops....I can't remember. But those are the only batteries I use in any of my devices.

My guess would be the batteries. They need to be fresh and of the right "type."

You can't necessarily go by dates on the batteries, and you can't depend on a quick battery check open-circuit voltage reading.

By "type" I mean the battery chemistry type. Do not use ANY kind of rechargeable battery in this type of application. Nor do you want a "Heavy Duty" battery for most circuits like this. Typically you'll want a good quality alkaline battery.

Example: The internal backup batteries in my robots draw a small continuous amount of current when the robot it shut OFF to maintain the position encoder data. (So the robot will know where it is when turned back ON.)

With the correct alkaline batteries, they will last up to three years. When a customer swapped the batteries for brand new "Heavy Duty" batteries, they failed in two weeks... All of them, in about one hundred robots.

The heavy duty batteries can put out a lot of power for a short period of time, but their chemistry doesn't hold up for long with a low continuous drain. This is why most intermittently used electronic devices, or those with a low continuous drain like many smoke detectors, will specify alkaline batteries. I suspect this is what your safe requires.

 

[Maddmax]

Concrete anchor bolts is all you need. I used the same ones i anchored my big gun safe down with. The vault has a drawer style door (it rolls out) or slides out whichever u want to call it. Basically what i did, i placed my vaults under my bad where i wanted them. Opened the vault door or removed it used a black sharpie to mark the anchor holes. Slid my bed out of the way, and then slide the vaults out of the way. Took my concrete drilling rig and drilled my anchor holes (my house is a 1 story with a cement slab). After they were drilled, I beat my anchors down into the cement with a hammer then i placed my vaults back over the anchors (door opened or removed). Grab urself a socket and ratchet that fits through the holes pre drilled on the (top) of the vault. Tighten the anchor bolts down, now ur vault is anchored to the floor. Close your vault door and now u are good to go.

The anchor bolts are not accessible when the door is closed on the vault. The door basically slides over the anchor bolts and thus prevents the bolts from being removed when the vault is locked.......Although each vault weighs 75lbs (without any weapons). But its never bad idea to anchor down any type of safe. Hell my AmSec gun safe weighs 1200lbs and i still have 4 anchor bolts in it, lol

Fully understand now. Great vault and anchors. Thanks.

 

[Justin69]

If its 3am, & I am in a dead sleep & some crackhead kicks in my front door, i dont know if I trust myself to remember 32 to the right...16 to the left...damn! what was that last # or even remembering a 4 digit code. Those biometric (fingerprint) gun safes look like the way to go. Anyone have any experience with them?

 

[BuckeyeChuck]

I am also looking and after seeing this I am staying away from the cheap vaults.
I am leaning towards Fort Knox

https://www.ftknox.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=57

Or FAS1 SAFE, LLC

When it came to pick a bedside lockbox, I couldn't get away from the benefits of a simplex lock, which both the Fort Knox and the FAS1 Safe use. No electronics, no mandatory wait period if you enter the wrong code, tactile feedback, and you can get into the box without any light if you practice a little bit. I ended up with the V-Line Top Draw:

Top Draw

You can't use this as an underseat safe in the car, but V-Line makes other models that might sufffice. It's a well-made product and I really like it. It looks good sitting on my nightstand, which makes the wife happy. For underseat storage I use a simple lockbox with a key. I never store the gun in the box unless I'm leaving the car; if I'm in the car, the gun is with me somewhere easily accessible.

 

[richard13]

When it came to pick a bedside lockbox, I couldn't get away from the benefits of a simplex lock, which both the Fort Knox and the FAS1 Safe use. No electronics, no mandatory wait period if you enter the wrong code, tactile feedback, and you can get into the box without any light if you practice a little bit. I ended up with the V-Line Top Draw:

Top Draw

You can't use this as an underseat safe in the car, but V-Line makes other models that might sufffice. It's a well-made product and I really like it. It looks good sitting on my nightstand, which makes the wife happy. For underseat storage I use a simple lockbox with a key. I never store the gun in the box unless I'm leaving the car; if I'm in the car, the gun is with me somewhere easily accessible.

No offense, guys, but are you serious? This isn't the real Fort Knox we are talking about here. And if it where, I'd be looking for something way more sophisticated than a "more mechanical parts than you can possibly imagine have fail on you at a critical time" solution. I think the digital safe that is only hacked by some nerds on YouTube is just fine. The fact of the matter is that no common burglar is going to bother acting like a jewel thief, spending precious time angling a coat hanger around in hopes of popping your gun safe. They are just going to take your stuff, leave and figure it out later on.

But hey, if this is the kind of solution you are into that's cool. I'm sure it works just fine. I just don't see how it is superior in any way.

Anyway, thanks to all of you! Your input has definitely helped me think through this and will consider all the options available to me.

 

[fdw]

I've not considered a safe and I don't have children at home, just me and the wife. I keep my Mossy within 2 feet of the bed with a low green light illuminating it so I can grab it quickly.

My 9 is under my sweeties underwear drawer in the armoire beside the bed. Her 22 is in her night stand. All easily accessible.

I keep a 38 snub in a drawer in the tv room. House is well protected by dogs and a few other things. Would be very difficult for anyone to get to my guns without me hearing them first.

Best!

 

[zotzer]

FDW,
Thanks, I was starting to feel lonesome.
Four big dogs, no kids. No safes. Guns loaded and handy (or on my person)
Tracy

 

[hrw4]

If its 3am, & I am in a dead sleep & some crackhead kicks in my front door, i dont know if I trust myself to remember 32 to the right...16 to the left...damn! what was that last # or even remembering a 4 digit code. Those biometric (fingerprint) gun safes look like the way to go. Anyone have any experience with them?

This is the one I have: Amazon.com: BARSKA Biometric Safe: Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZiRqGMyjL.@@AMEPARAM@@41ZiRqGMyjL

The fingerprint reader works great, but the safe itself leaves a lot to be desired. The metal is paper thin. One of the reviews said it was akin to the metal in a high school locker and I agree. It's pretty darn close.

 

[RussC]

If its 3am, & I am in a dead sleep & some crackhead kicks in my front door, i dont know if I trust myself to remember 32 to the right...16 to the left...damn! what was that last # or even remembering a 4 digit code. Those biometric (fingerprint) gun safes look like the way to go. Anyone have any experience with them?

From what I have read you must spend the bucks if you go finger print reader.

The Gunvault from my research is not 100% reliable with their fingerprint reader.

Folks have reported that you must make identical contact you did when you originally had the scanner read your fingerprint.

It reminds me of a bar code reader at the store. The cashier sometimes has to mess with the positioning of the bar code before the scanner will read.

I have enjoyed flawless quick access of my Gunvault digital lock for 2 years. I found leaving the keys on audible rather than mute and making sure my code does not use the same number more than one time (example 1, 2, 2, 4) in sequence eliminated human error.

Russ

 

[BuckeyeChuck]

No offense, guys, but are you serious?

Like a heart attack. The box to which I linked is what I actually bought *after* evaluating alternatives including biometric and electronic combination vaults.

This isn't the real Fort Knox we are talking about here. And if it where, I'd be looking for something way more sophisticated than a "more mechanical parts than you can possibly imagine have fail on you at a critical time" solution. I think the digital safe that is only hacked by some nerds on YouTube is just fine. The fact of the matter is that no common burglar is going to bother acting like a jewel thief, spending precious time angling a coat hanger around in hopes of popping your gun safe. They are just going to take your stuff, leave and figure it out later on.

But hey, if this is the kind of solution you are into that's cool. I'm sure it works just fine. I just don't see how it is superior in any way.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the bedside vault. It's not to prevent somebody from stealing my gun(s). I have a much larger, heavier safe for that purpose. The vault's purpose is to prevent my children from having access to loaded firearms while allowing me to get to them quickly if I need them. If I didn't have children, I wouldn't lock my guns at night; in fact, when they aren't at home, I *don't* lock up my guns at night. Thus, I had two overriding criteria:

(1) Not easily defeated by children.
(2) Easily accessible. I further divided this into the following:
(a) Improbable failure.
(b) Predictable failure modes.
(c) Rapid recovery from error.

To describe the simplex lock as a solution with "more mechanical parts than you can possibly imagine have fail on you at a critical time" is to confess to ignorance of the simplex lock. The simplex lock is a wonderfully simple device, which is part of its allure for this application, where high security is not required.

Regarding item (2) and its subitems, the simplex lock has fewer failure modes than an electronic vault, especially a biometric vault. The biometric vault has analog sensors, A/D converters, and electronic hardware and software to interpret the sensor input into a pattern that is recognized and subsequently approved by the elecronics. The controller must then fire an output driver commanding actuation of the lock, and then the lock must itself actuate.

The simplex lock also has failure modes. I could fail to reset the lock prior to entering the code. I could fail to enter the correct code. I could fail to turn the knob to open the lock. And of course, the lock itself could mechanically fail. What's important in this analysis is that *I* am likely to be the primary failure mode.

What should ensue then is a philosophical and technical discussion. Philosophically, we all acknowledge that an important part of self-defense is to have a plan and practice it until it can be executed without much thought. With a biometric vault, this means reaching out for the vault, placing your hands in the correct spot, and waiting for the device to do its thing. With the simplex lock, this means reaching out for the vault, placing my hands in the correct spot, and executing between five and eight well-defined movements: counterclockwise twist three to five button pushes in the correct sequence, clockwise twist, and without releasing the knob, raising the lid to access the firearms inside. I concede that the simplex lock approach is more complex -- on paper. In reality, it isn't. Why? Because the key to faithful execution under duress is practice and more practice. This is true with both types of vault. If I practice routinely (and I do) then my judgement was and is that the biometric vault does not have an operational advantage over the simplex lock. Philosophically, the most important bit is to have a plan and to practice it, not to have a potentially easier device so that you don't have to practice. If the latter were true, nobody would carry anything except DAO revolvers because they are, by far, the simplest guns to operate. No, peopel have been carrying 1911's since... 1911... and they have been successfully used for defense despite the added complexity of having to release the safety. Practice, practice, practice. It matters MOST.

Technically, the thing for which I love the simplex lock the most isn't its remarkable simplicity or reliability, but rather its recovery from error. Once my hands are on the lock, I can enter the code and have the lid open in about two seconds. And if I make a mistake (something I am likely to know even before I try to open the lid), then only two more seconds are required to complete the sequence.

As another poster said, I didn't like the reliability of the cheap biometric safes. People often reported that the reader denied access when the hands were place in haste. I decided that I was more comfortable as the primary point of failure than the machine, because I can *practice* and so can my wife.

If there is a shortcoming of the simplex lock approach (at least for the V-Line Top Draw), it is that the box does not automatically lock when you close the lid. You must grab the knob and turn it. If you are not confident in your ability to faithfully execute this, then a self-locking solution may be preferable. There are self-locking simplex locks. I don't know if any gun vault has them.

So, am I serious? Yes. I'm sure somebody will say "This is much too complicated just to select a gun vault." I disagree. Self-defense is a serious matter and if there is an upper limit to the detail with which I can and should execute it, I haven't found it yet.

 

[Smitty357]

Biometric!!!!!!!!!! By all means, anyone thinking of going that direction, please stay away from that ****. Biometric is not that easy to get into when your adrenaline is pumping. In most cases, you'll be dead long before you manage to open it in cases where stress is a factor. I'd rather see you have a lock and key than i'd see you with biometric.

And as BuckeyeChuck has stated above, most people dont use vaults to keep their weapons from being stolen. They just use them to keep them away from the kids but easily accessible to adults. In this case, that is EXACTLY how a a parent should look at it. You can't fault a parent for preventing accidents to their children from weapons........And im sure the weapons that are valuable or have memories are probably the weapons that are in his real gun safe, not the ones sitting in his bedside vault.